Gruul/Voidreaver Offtanking - HowTo

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Gruul/Voidreaver Offtanking - HowTo

Postby Phaex » Wed Aug 29, 2007 6:57 pm

Hi there,
I'm Phaex of Destromath-EU, a german PvP Server.
Currently second MT of <Ara Agrippina>, a rather casual guild, raiding 25 mans 3 nights a week.
We progressed to ssc 5.9/6 and tk 3/4 by now.

In the past few weeks, i've read several posts, describing how bad we Paladins are at offtanking.
Considering i offtank both encounters every week, i decided to give you a short writeup about how i do it
or more, encourage you to try it yourself.
Many tankadins believe that the majority of our threat is generated on a passive "when struck" basis.
While this is true to some degree, it is nonsense too. It really depends.

Lets theorycraft a bit..

First, lets look at the active part of our threat.

1) Autohit
Its a small source of threat at first, but its there, and it isn't THAT small, depending on weapon.
2) Seal
Most use Righteousness, steady source of tps.
3) Judgement
Almost as good as the Seal itself, its a steady and cheap source of threat.
4) Consecrate
Rather expensive, but high TPS and should be spammed until low on mana.
5) Avenger's Shield
Cast time, horrible tps/mana ratio. Should be used with caution. I almost don't use it for offtanking anymore. But i did spam it
on timer when i offtanked with alot worse gear and shadowpriest support.

If you dislike SoV, or don't have it, SoR works fine too. But slightly less effective.


Second, lets look at how much gear affects these skills.


Full avoid set - 88 spelldamage
1) Suneater 84 dps, hits for 160 average - 100 tps
2) SoV ticks for 172 every 3 seconds - 109 tps
3) JoV hits for 668 every 8 seconds - 159 tps
4) Consecrate hits for 78 every second - 148 tps
5) Avengers Shield hits for 615 every 30 seconds - 39 tps
---
This is 554 total active tps.

(RF is already calculated, example: 767 judge x 1.9 would equal 1457 damage every 8 seconds -> 182 tps)

Normal tanking set - 2 piece t4 bonus - 413 spelldamage and we judge crusader (+190 spelldamage).
1) LC Gavel 41 dps, hits for 155 average - 57 tps
2) SoV ticks for 287 every 3 seconds - 182 tps
3) JoV hits for 838 every 8 seconds - 199 tps
4) Consecrate hits for 141 every second - 268 tps
5) Avengers Shield hits for 650 every 30 seconds - 41 tps
---
This is 747 total active tps

So these extra 515 spelldamage increase our tps by 236, not counting the dps lost by the weapon switch of course.
This makes me believe that 1 Spelldamage equals 0.46 active tps. So a spellpower flask and wizard oil would give another 50 tps.

My current Stats when tanking Voidreaver are around 540 spelldamage. In theory, this is allowing me to do more than 800 tps without the mob hitting me at all.
This, however, is reduced a bit by misses and resists. But also increased by sunder armor.
Don't bother about uncrushability too much here. A solid HP Pool of 17k should be enough. VR is crushing for 4-6k. This shouldn't kill anyone.
Gruul isn't crushing offtanks at all. Depending on how quick your raid kills gruul, more hp might be needed.

Here is a small vid of last night's voidreaver kill.
It wasn't too pretty. I told everyone that i'm going to record it, and as expected, we totally messed up.
We had a new defwarrior around too, he has to get used to it :) I might post another less flawed one next week.
I was holding back at the beginning to help with rage starvation by taking over too soon.
Reaching average 800 tps after about 30 seconds till the end. Peaking to almost 1.3k while the mob was hitting me.
We do not have a feral druid these days, so i'm like the only one who can do solid OT tps.

As you can see, the little AE damage that is always there and manapots on timer are leaving me with 1k mana left after 9 minutes, when VR died.
Gruul is very similar, you might run into manaproblems early on, but after several grows, they are gone.

Good Luck on these Bosses.

//Phaex.

P.S.: Link following tomorrow. Currently rendering, uploading to go.
Sorry for mistakes i might made. Foreign language and stuff.
Last edited by Phaex on Thu Aug 30, 2007 6:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Velaegis » Wed Aug 29, 2007 7:24 pm

EDIT: Mmmmmmmmuffins.
Last edited by Velaegis on Wed Aug 29, 2007 8:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Phaex » Wed Aug 29, 2007 7:31 pm

This is about offtanking, so its assuming you are throwing things at a mob not hitting you, just to build as much threat as possible. How the hell will you take extra crushings that way ; )
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Postby Velaegis » Wed Aug 29, 2007 8:30 pm

OH SHNAP

I guess I just get in a maintanking mindset when I get on these forums. Sorry about that!

Nice guide :D
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Postby Mahale » Wed Aug 29, 2007 8:32 pm

i have the season two mace and I only have 340 something spell damage, where are you getting so much extra spell damage?
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Postby Shalon » Wed Aug 29, 2007 11:54 pm

Mahale wrote:i have the season two mace and I only have 340 something spell damage, where are you getting so much extra spell damage?


Yeah i would like to know too.
For some fights like Vold Reaver, we still need to tank the boss sometimes.
How can we stack around 500 spell dmg and maintain high stam , avoidance?
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Postby Cragus » Thu Aug 30, 2007 12:30 am

Phaex wrote:This is about offtanking, so its assuming you are throwing things at a mob not hitting you, just to build as much threat as possible. How the hell will you take extra crushings that way ; )


You will get crushings when things go a little off plan, eg on Gruul if the MT isnt positioned correctly after being lobbed about or if he dies suddenly. Have low rank shield up during times of concern.


Shalon wrote:Yeah i would like to know too.
For some fights like Vold Reaver, we still need to tank the boss sometimes.
How can we stack around 500 spell dmg and maintain high stam , avoidance?


Perhaps that is fully buffed with the spell dm totem. However on void reaver avoidance and stamina take less of a prority as he hits like a panzie.
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Postby Mortehl » Thu Aug 30, 2007 6:31 am

I have over 500 spell damage in my threat gear while still maintaining a 16k+ health pool raid buffed and the obvious uncrushability. My Spell damage can reach just under 1k on single targets with the right conditions:

1) I have JoTC down

2) Eye of Mag procs (more often then you might think)

3) I have a wrath of air totem in range.

4) Wizard Oil

Really, I've had a complete rethink about paladin gear and how to approach my role in the raid. Now that I've become less warrior like and more paladin like, Off tanking isn't quite as far fetched as it used to be. Not to say that I don't main tank.. I actually do MT most progression and early farm fights for my guild, but the type of gear and the approach I take is VERY different. Don't get me wrong, this isn't the gear I wear for every fight, for the tough stuff I still wip out my avoidance/stamina set and my buffed HP hovers between 17.8k and 19.9k dependent on a few things.

Threat Gear:

Bracers of Dignity
5/5 T4
Belt of the Guardian
Boots of the Protector
Merciless Gladiator's Gavel
A +spell damage cloak (don't recall the name)
Eye of Magtheridon (I strongly recommend this for paladin tanks)
Arthas, we're coming for you. (Eventually)
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Postby Phaex » Thu Aug 30, 2007 7:11 am

Yeah, these were my thoughts too. Seeing most guilds don't carry protpallies as their maintanks deeper into 25 mans, for obvious reasons, our T-Sets aren't as bad as they look.

These items are made for offtanking, bursting agro, while maintaining a solid damage reduction. Stuff we are good at.
So i changed my every day gear from warrior to mostly pally items.

My gear on VR has
2/5 T5 with def enchants (shoulders, legs),
2/5 T4 with spelldamage enchants (helm, gloves),
Belt of the Guardian,
Boots of the Protector,
Nightbane Spelldam Shield
Lower City Gavel

I throw in a flask of supreme power and a wizard oil

And reaching 500 spelldamage without shaman support, at 18k raidbuffed hp and uncrushability.
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Postby Shalon » Thu Aug 30, 2007 12:15 pm

After checking some armorys, and read some posts in this forum.
I have recognized that there are some nice gears that good for tankadin start drop from SSC/TK and so on.
Yeah those gears have many spell damage and do not sacrifice stam and avoidance very much. (especially those drop from BT/Hyjal)

However, im just step out of kara and start progressing the 25men.
Did you guys have a hard time during this period?
Sure i know you dont have problem coming back to OT gruul when you have those T5 gears.

I dont want spec holy to get gears from T5/T6 instances and come back to off tank T4. :cry:
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Postby Mahale » Thu Aug 30, 2007 12:38 pm

same here shalon.


I've got one tier four piece no tier 5 pieces.


Right now even getting gear upgrades means I have to do a crazy balance of stam vs. avoidance so squeezing out anymore damage is really not likely to happen.


What i'm going to ask my raid leader to do next time is move me into a SP group with a shaman putting down their spell damage totem. hopefully that will be enough for me to keep up my mana and keep up on the threat list.
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Postby neokai » Thu Aug 30, 2007 2:37 pm

Unfortunately, for kara/gruul/mag level loot, the only spell damage will come from T4, weapon, shield and watever caster ring/cloak/neck you can squeeze in. Even then, getting 500 spell damage is far from impossible.

T4 5 piece = 143 spell damage
Bloodmaw magus blade = 203 spell damage
Seal of Exorcist = 28 spell damage
Dragonheart Flameshield = 23 spell damage
WoA totem = 105 spell damage
Flask of Supreme Power = 70 spell damage
Wizard Oil = 42 spell damage

Total = 614 spell damage. Continuum blade has 121 spell damage, 82 less than bloodmaw, but still above the 500.

I've tanked VR with less than 450 spell damage before without significant aggro problems, so it would be wise for those not fully decked in T4 (let alone T5) to aim for 400++ spell damage gear while maintaining uncrushability. 2 piece T4 bonus also helps heaps with aggro (10% imp SoV/SoR mmmmmmm).
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Postby Phaex » Thu Aug 30, 2007 2:50 pm

Uhm, i had T4 Helm + Gloves and the LC Gavel when i first went there. Thats about 400 buffed spelldam.
You might want to ask your readleader about shadowpriest or even shaman support. This will help alot at the beginning.
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Postby jere » Thu Aug 30, 2007 3:07 pm

If you are need spell dmg just out of kara

T4 Helm - 27 spell dmg
T4 Gloves - 27 spell dmg
D3 Shoulders - 15 spell dmg
D3 Chest - 23 spell dmg
S2 Arena Mace - 225 + 40 = 265 spell dmg

That is 357 spell dmg from gear

Then
190 from JotC
42 from Wizard Oil
23 from food buff
70 from flask
15-20 from Improved Divine Spirit/GotW/BoK combination

That can boost you up to 700 spell dmg from gear and consumables

Take into consideration, that is for fights where you need more threat. Obviously you would wear heftier armor when required, but if you are building a threat set, then those are good starting places, and none of them require 25 mans.

I personally run with:

T4 shoulders
T4 Helm
D3 Chest (WTB T4 chest or Panza'Thar)
S2 mace

and I also mix in some 6stam+5dmg gems when I can.

Your mileage may vary, but buffs alone can raise your spell dmg quite a bit.
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Postby kedalic » Thu Aug 30, 2007 4:14 pm

I also use an Icon of the Silver Crescent (swap it with moroes depending on needing threat or avoidance), and the exalted CE caster ring (37 stam + spell hit and dmg, sweet). Weapon + flask + wizard oil + spelldmg food + crusader + 2 piece t4 will mostly do it.
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