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DPS as Protection

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Postby Dorvan » Sun Jan 18, 2009 8:54 pm

Belarkan wrote:I disagree here.
Gems/enchant put appart, ret and prot gear can have around the same amount of strength.


http://www.wowhead.com/?items=4.4&filte ... =0:0#0+7+1
http://www.wowhead.com/?items=4.4&filte ... =0:0#0+7+1

Even in the cases where they do have similar amounts of Strength (Ret usually has more, but in some cases the difference is only slight), are you really going to gem your Prot gear for Str and AP? Enchants and gems do make a huge difference. Plus there's all the secondary stats. For DPS'ing wear Ret gear as much as you can, not Prot.
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Postby Mithos » Mon Jan 19, 2009 6:51 am

I've never used this "double ShoR" thing, so here is my experience from a "regular" point of view on prot DPS.

I put on my ret gear with and then make adjustments. Haste and Armour Penetration are next to completely worthless, and you want to be hit capped (8% nowadays so I'm told) and ideally expertise dodge capped. Being exp capped is far easier as prot due to the 6 we get for free, but hit capped can be annoying. As people have pointed out, 100% ret gear is not optimum; some slots will have pure AP rather than strength, which we don't want. Gear with huge Strength is what you're aiming for, with as much crit thrown in as possible as well. Sometimes tank items will be better options than DPS items.

I do have a question myself, though:

As far as I'm aware, for DPSing, we want to use SoB really as it gives mana back. I've noticed recently (and then read it here to confirm) that SoV is actually more DPS than SoB with a fast weapon, which I'm using (Last Laugh). Now my question is:.

Whilst DPSing, should I be using a slow weapon or Last Laugh? Or is it simply better to use SoV and be careful with mana?

Not that I've ever seen Broken Promise, but I do end up prot DPSing alot and I do enjoy it, so would like to get some confirmation.
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Postby Scottzirra » Mon Jan 19, 2009 11:32 am

I guess my earlier post here left some things unclear. To clarify:

1. Prot gear has high STR.
2. It is possible to stack BV in all but 3 slots.
3. You can fill those 3 slots w/ ret pieces, and still emergency tank.

I have another tank (warrior) that is my 2 tank, and we usually trade off MTing bosses to make it interesting for both. When he tanks, I dps. I load as much BV as I can, and in the other slots, do whatever gives me the most crit. With my spec 0/54/17 I have roughly a 30% crit chance full raid buffed. I normally through on seal of the martyr to soak some chain heals and CoH's to help out on mana, while still maintaining reasonable seal dmg. I keep sword and board on, and only switch to SoW if I am running low. I also exploit the hell out of ShoR rank1.

Judge>Shor2>Shor1>HotR.

With my current gear, with this setup, I am consistently over 2k dps, with me finishing some bosses at 2.2k dps. This of course, is not crazy high, but it is also not bad.

My ret gear is reasonable, but I put up higher dps in prot gear (except those 3 slots that cannot get BV) than i do in ret gear w/ 1h+shield.
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Postby Rasmfrackn » Mon Jan 19, 2009 2:25 pm

Dorvan wrote:
sunstrike wrote:If you look at things now they aren't really any different and in fact the gear difference is even more pronounced. STR is most highest on prot gear, just research it, it isn't hard. And STR is the #1 attribute for doing dps while prot followed by BV and then AP. This is established very well in another thread here.


Str is the most important stat for Prot DPS, but your Prot gear won't have anywhere near as much Str as your Ret gear unless your Ret gear is of *much* lower quality. Add in secondary stats like crit instead of defense, and you'll do much better DPS'ing in Ret gear than Prot, there's no contest.


Or if your Ret gear exploits the disparity between plate gear and mail gear to get more stats for the same budget.

I realized this conflict in gearing when I was looking to do dps in my prot spec. I need a lot more str and BV than my ret set has, whereas my Ret set has comparable AP with a lot more crit/expertise(/mana) for "Free" due to 5-stat pieces instead of 3-4-stat pieces.

That said, it's not like tank gear sucks for dps because it does have Str and BV on it. The main concern is running out of mana, so address that (SoW, BoSac, run INTO the fire, etc) and you should at least be respectable.
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Postby mirkodeluxe » Mon Jan 19, 2009 4:39 pm

I have no numbers, but is the dps really that much higher in ret gear as opposed to protgear in the same spec?

I actually think im better off being a tank in all situations. If the MT dies, then there absolutely is an underlying cause that should be addressed, but it can just as easily be lag at 10%. If I have my tankgear on I can take over and we save time, if I am in retgear I will probably die quickly.

If Brutallustype fights start appearing I shall reconsider, but currently I prefer being a tank always. I dont even have retgear anymore.
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Postby Isetnefret » Mon Jan 19, 2009 4:51 pm

I've never used this "double ShoR" thing


Give it a whirl.

If someone dropped off a Ferrari at my house, with the keys, that didn't belong to me, then said, "We'll be back to pick it up....sometime....in the future.....but we don't care if you drive it, won't charge you for gas, damage, wear and tear, etc..", THEN, didn't show up for months.....the honorable thing would be not to drive it, since it doesn't belong to you. Wouldn't stop me.
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Postby Dorvan » Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:55 pm

Isetnefret wrote:
I've never used this "double ShoR" thing


Give it a whirl.

If someone dropped off a Ferrari at my house, with the keys, that didn't belong to me, then said, "We'll be back to pick it up....sometime....in the future.....but we don't care if you drive it, won't charge you for gas, damage, wear and tear, etc..", THEN, didn't show up for months.....the honorable thing would be not to drive it, since it doesn't belong to you. Wouldn't stop me.


Meh, I wouldn't bother at this point. It'll be gone in 12 hours.
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Postby cordelia » Tue Jan 20, 2009 1:34 am

Honestly, I LOOOVE the 2xShoR bug, but did you seriously just compare it to driving a Ferrari?

Ok, I decided to post something on-topic, too.
It honestly depends a lot on your gear. If you have mail ret gear and it's unenchanted, you're better off in prot gear. If you gem and enchant plate ret gear, you're better off in that. If your prot gear is gemmed and enchanted for stam, but it has BV on it, and the ret gear is unenchanted but has similar str and crit, then the prot gear may be better, but not certainly.

How do you decide for yourself? There was a thread where we calculated relative TPS contributions of each stat. Multiply the stats on the gear by the TPS contribution, and you get an approximate "threat" weight for that piece of gear. Given a no-mana issue, your tps is proportional to your dps, so the highest threat piece wins. Someone posted a list of weights in this thread, too, if they are the correct weights from that other thread, then use those.

In mana-situations, consecration probably gets dropped from the rotation first. Beats me how that would affect the weighting, but BV would be slightly stronger, at least.
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Postby Isetnefret » Tue Jan 20, 2009 8:02 am

I was comparing it something with high temptation, and no penalty.

I have posted logs and parses on the internet, proving undeniably that I have used it. What is the recourse from Blizzard? Nothing? Oh, but they are going to fix it ASAP right? No?

People say not to get used to it, learn to tank without it, etc.

Completely understandable.

Not to use it at all? All of this is moot as I assume 3.0.8 is FINALLY going live as I type this. I for one have been anxiously awaiting this patch, and annoyed with how long it took.

More to the topic, I have never gotten a single tank or DPS drop from Naxx or Sartharion. I got T7 chest from Archavon and gloves from badges. I carry around almost an entire set of healing plate from Naxx, and a few DPS epics from heroics.

I swap out a couple pieces when I want to DPS. My STR is 1150, my unbuffed AP is around 2400-2500, and I'm hit capped with my DPS set. My SBV is actually higher, 1400ish unbuffed, because I keep every piece of gear that gives SBV for my dps set.

I'm not bragging about these stats, though I'm pretty sure a lot of people here will be quick to point out how sucky they are, as they did with my Patchwerk parse above.

For some reason, people seem to think I'm touting how awesome I am. I want you to understand I am trying to illustrate that in pretty scrubtastic gear, as I've mentioned here, I am able to put out 1600 DPS.

The people who want to scoff at that because they're in full Naxx 25/EoE 25 gear, will tell you shit like, "I wouldn't let that in my normal Utgarde Keep run, let alone my Naxx 10 raid."

The key, IMO to this is you want your HotR to do as much damage as possible, and the way I know to do that is stack STR as high as you can.

Even if you ignore 2 ranks of ShoR, a large part of your damage will come from using 1 rank of ShoR, that's why I keep my SBV pieces. It's fortunate that they also happen to be high in STR.

I just got the tanking sword from heroic UP last night. I'll use that for DPS from now on, but prior to that, I was using the sword from Wyrmrest Accord as my DPS weapon. Use whatever makes your HotR hit the hardest.
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Postby Digren » Tue Jan 20, 2009 8:47 am

Jellypop wrote:although i usually just pull aggro off the warrior tank on thaddius anyways..


Thaddius attacks whoever is closest to him. If you're pulling aggro you're standing in the wrong place.
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Postby Eanin » Tue Jan 20, 2009 9:02 am

Prot gear is so strength heavy right now, that it's basically ret gear without crit. For example, there are three BPs with 100+ str:

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44000
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40579
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=39767

Notice something? Two of them are for tanking.

Unless you're never, ever wiping, stuff goes wrong, and it's good to have a back-up plan. If the MT dies, you can still discuss how to fix it...on the way to the next boss. That extra 10% or so crit is going to prevent less wipes than a Plan B.

As for the original question, I use Seal of Vengeance, largely because I tend to DPS in my prot gear and it does more dps. On a longer fight, I use SoB, because otherwise I start to have mana problems.
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Postby Candiru » Tue Jan 20, 2009 9:58 am

Remember that while when TANKING SoB is comparable to SoV, when DPS ing you are attacking from the rear, and so suffer no parries.

This puts SoB a long way ahead of SoV with slow weapons. (there is a good 2.7s blue sword from heroic AN, or the 2.5s broken promise)
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Postby PapaNasty » Tue Jan 20, 2009 10:58 am

SoV is better when you're prot spec in prot gear, not much point in using SoB/SotM since you lose that extra expertise and you don't have the crit % to really get the value out of Martyr

Only time Martyr is better, is if you are concerned about mana. But I've never really had any problems on Malyagos / sappharion which are the only two fights I usually dps for

In full prot gear (except I put on a +hit trinket for 1 slot), using the double shield slam, I'm usually around 2.5k dps give or take

In Ret gear I'm about the same, lose alot of dps from crap shield slams but gain alot from hit rating / crit rating, so it kinda balances out. So best to stick in prot gear since then you're able to swap to tanking if something goes loose etc (And having 35-40k life helps for those aoes etc which you're often too lazy to move out of as a tank lol)
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Postby Candiru » Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:02 am

Remember that expertise is really really bad as a DPS stat in prot spec.

You attack from the back, so only dodges anyway. Expertise is therefore worth half as much as it is while tanking.

This means SoB does very well since you have a dodge rate of 2.5% rather than a dodge+parry rate of 15% or so.
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Postby Dem » Wed Jan 21, 2009 5:39 am

Jellypop wrote: always shit that can happen, and it's probably better if a tank can pick it up after the main tank DCs on a fight


This.

Shit happens. I've seen plenty of wipes avoided by another tank picking up.

Sure if there are root cause issues then deal with them, but this is really a matter of risk assessment.

If your raid is failing due to a lack of dps then the risk of a tank dying without a backup is acceptable to generate additional dps.

If your raid is already skipping through the encounters and doesn't need the dps then there's no issue with a spare tank in tank gear.

I keep my normal tank gear for dps if I'm not needed for some reason. A barely noticeable increase in my dps makes absolutely no difference to the content we're farming.
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