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Choice between dodge/parry gem + diminishing return

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Choice between dodge/parry gem + diminishing return

Postby Cema » Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:26 pm

Hi people

Recently I spoke with a warrior of my guild about his stuff cause he was using parry gems over dodge. He had already more dodge than parry and he wanted to have nearly the same amount because in his mind it was "a good optimization"

I don't know if what I will show here has already been done. Basically I have made a short calculation that can help you to choose between a parry gem and a dodge one

This takes into account :
- diminihing return on parry / dodge
- fact that you need more parry rating than dodge for 1% avoidance

Calculation based on this sheet from tankspot

http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f63/4000 ... dance.html

Image

Image

Image

Image


The part underlined in red is the final result and is really easy to use because all you have to know is your percentage of dodge and parry ingame. Nothing more. Mareover it is short and can be done with a macro ( dont ask me I don't know how to make such macro)

If the result is > 1 then choose a dodge gem

If the result is < 1 choose a parry gem
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Postby Cema » Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:28 pm

more incoming ...

In fact you can exploit the last result to make a graph.

Replace Dodge by X, Parry by Y

You will get a curve that will help you to see where you are. If you are under the curve you should stack parry , if you are over it you should stack dodge

etc ... calculation and graph incoming =)
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Postby Fridmarr » Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:00 pm

Before you get too far, you may want to look at this thread, http://www.failsafedesign.com/maintanka ... hp?t=18323 to avoid duplicating work. Also, it's probably best if you add to that existing thread.
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Postby Neara » Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:16 pm

huge pictures are huge :shock:



(btw: there's no Subtle Scarlet Ruby ingame if you are referring to that one as "Dodge-gem" )
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Postby DisRuptive1 » Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:22 pm

I don't understand the equation, although I know where I would put my dodge and parry numbers. I'm good with math but not all the theorms (sp?) in math.

When I look at the equation, I see

(g8,^3-Dodge) / (57,00-Parry) x 0,68 > 1



^^I don't understand :(
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Postby xstrykr » Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:24 pm

holy shit that huge ass image hurts the eyes. please reduce (or link rather than embed)?

but damn, that's kinda intriguing, just from glancing at it. will look at it in more detail at home...
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Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:31 pm

DisRuptive1 wrote:When I look at the equation, I see

(g8,^3-Dodge) / (57,00-Parry) x 0,68 > 1



^^I don't understand :(

It's 98.13.
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Postby Dorvan » Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:37 pm

Yeah, those images are too large to be useful on many monitors (notably the 14" widescreen display on my laptop).

Ideally transcribe the notes, or at least shrink them to 50-75% of their current size, the handwriting's plenty big enough to allow that.
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Postby Conaan! » Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:11 pm

i cant read cursive, so that was terrible to even try to decipher, and someones already written it out so i can see it (thanks <D), so mind explaining if by dodge you mean % or rating, and an example of how to use this formula
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Postby Adanel » Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:01 am

Using your formula to get some numbers:
1.0/0.68 = ~1.47
(98.13-dodge)/(57-parry) = 1.47
This is the point where both stats are equal.

(98.13-dodge) = 1.47*57 -1.47*parry

parry = (83.79 - (98.13 - dodge))/1.47
parry = (83.79 - (98.13 - dodge))/1.47
parry = (dodge - 14.34)/1.47

If you have:
20% dodge -> 3.85% parry
25% dodge -> 7.2% parry
30% dodge -> 10.653% parry
35% dodge -> 14.05% parry
40% dodge -> 17.45% parry
45% dodge -> 20.857% parry
50% dodge -> 24.25% parry

Even raid buffed i don't think there's gear to make parry a better stat.
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Postby Cema » Wed Dec 31, 2008 3:47 am

Adanel wrote:Using your formula to get some numbers:
1.0/0.68 = ~1.47
(98.13-dodge)/(57-parry) = 1.47
This is the point where both stats are equal.

(98.13-dodge) = 1.47*57 -1.47*parry

parry = (83.79 - (98.13 - dodge))/1.47
parry = (83.79 - (98.13 - dodge))/1.47
parry = (dodge - 14.34)/1.47

If you have:
20% dodge -> 3.85% parry
25% dodge -> 7.2% parry
30% dodge -> 10.653% parry
35% dodge -> 14.05% parry
40% dodge -> 17.45% parry
45% dodge -> 20.857% parry
50% dodge -> 24.25% parry

Even raid buffed i don't think there's gear to make parry a better stat.


Exactly.

It does mean that increasing your dodge is nearly always more interesting than increasing your parry if you're crit caped, even with diminishing return cause Parry is crapier than anything

I Ilready though it was the case but that much ....

I hope we will see more dodge on our stuff in Ulduar =)

BTW you can also know your diminishing return on dodge with result (6)

D = (98,13 - Dodge) / 84,25

With dodge = 23% you get D = 0,89

It means that only 89% of your dodge rating is taken into account when you have 23% dodge

etc ... =)

ps : sorry for the size of the images. I had problems while scanning
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Postby Zand » Wed Dec 31, 2008 8:07 am

Hasn't someone else done this math, and pretty much come to the conclusion that it's basically best to go w/ defense once dodge hits a certain level? It still is a lot of dodge to get there though.

Personally, I just go for defense...just so I know I'm going to stay above 102.4%. I like having high block % for threat, and even chances to dodge/parry. I haven't found high avoidance particularly necessary in any current content.
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Postby harlekin » Wed Dec 31, 2008 10:19 am

The inter-relationship between dodge, parry, and defense is more complicated than it seems. That's why I made that spreadsheet that was linked earlier. If you want to maximize your avoidance, you will want some parry rating.

The quick and dirty rules I have divined are as follows:
1) Stack defense to get uncrittable
2) Stack defense and shield block rating to get block capped (optional, paladins only)
3) Stack dodge until it is roughly equal to your defense rating
4) Stack parry until it is roughly 1/3 of your dodge
Increase dodge and defense roughly equally and parry at 1/3 the rate

For fine tuning, just use the spreadsheet :) Defense rating values rely on estimated diminishing returns rates of miss. The 1/3 rule for parry is a rough estimate and as can be seen above is not linear. The optimal parry ratio changes as your gear gets better, so use the spreadsheet if you want accuracy.
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Postby DisRuptive1 » Wed Dec 31, 2008 6:54 pm

harlekin wrote:3) Stack dodge until it is roughly equal to your defense rating


Stack dodge rating to equal defense rating?
Stack dodge% from dodge rating to equal dodge% from defense rating?
Stack dodge% from dodge rating to equal dodge%+parry%+miss%+block% from defense rating?

I have confused myself again.
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Postby luminae » Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:01 pm

you want to have about 700 defense rating, give or take, without falling below the 689 defense rating necessary to be crit immune.

stack dodge rating until you have 700 dodge rating (equal to your defense rating)

parry should be a distant third, coming in at roughly 230 rating after achieving 700/700

going above 700/700, keep adding defense and dodge together, keeping them equal.
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