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DPS in tanking spec?

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Postby Belarkan » Sat Dec 27, 2008 11:46 pm

Ashmadai wrote:You're wearing the wrong Ret set if it doesn't have more STR on it than your Tank gear. Rings are usually an exception because they tend to lack STR sometimes for the DPS rings.

Honestly, I don't carry my ret gear with me. If I need to DPS while OTing I just do it in my tank gear with Hotr/ShoR and Judging and it works more than fine. But you will get more DPS out of the ret gear because you will have about equal STR which means about equal AP and SBV, and you'll have an ton more Crit.

maybe going to a super max SBV set might give the best returns, but I haven't tested it. I know I can get up to around 1800 unbuffed SBV with every piece of gear I have that has raw SBV, so that might make the best set since ShoR only has a 6 second CD. Especially if you were using both ranks, though I do not do that.


Given that my primary spec is tank which is what I do 90% of the time, I'm not sure I got more strength than my tanking set.
Assuming you get the same strength means both sets are about the same level
DPS and tanking gear now have around the same strength amounts.

I was under the feeling that ret gear had more AP than strenght but this might be wrong and comes from the amulets/cloaks/rings/trinkets/weapons.

Edit:
This is especially true for amulets for which the 8 epics with strength also have defense for example. Same goes with cloaks.
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Postby majiben » Sun Dec 28, 2008 6:25 am

Belarkan wrote:
Ashmadai wrote:You're wearing the wrong Ret set if it doesn't have more STR on it than your Tank gear. Rings are usually an exception because they tend to lack STR sometimes for the DPS rings.

Honestly, I don't carry my ret gear with me. If I need to DPS while OTing I just do it in my tank gear with Hotr/ShoR and Judging and it works more than fine. But you will get more DPS out of the ret gear because you will have about equal STR which means about equal AP and SBV, and you'll have an ton more Crit.

maybe going to a super max SBV set might give the best returns, but I haven't tested it. I know I can get up to around 1800 unbuffed SBV with every piece of gear I have that has raw SBV, so that might make the best set since ShoR only has a 6 second CD. Especially if you were using both ranks, though I do not do that.


Given that my primary spec is tank which is what I do 90% of the time, I'm not sure I got more strength than my tanking set.
Assuming you get the same strength means both sets are about the same level
DPS and tanking gear now have around the same strength amounts.

I was under the feeling that ret gear had more AP than strenght but this might be wrong and comes from the amulets/cloaks/rings/trinkets/weapons.

Edit:
This is especially true for amulets for which the 8 epics with strength also have defense for example. Same goes with cloaks.
Okay I just did a search of all plate gear with strength of iLevel 200 and non set.

My findings are that the average dps gear piece had higher str for every slot. Additionally dps gear had the highest str piece in each slot except for the waist and bracers where it tied both times.

My conclusion:
On average dps gear will have higher str than tanking gear.
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Postby Ascendant » Sun Dec 28, 2008 9:24 am

Threatco wrote:I carry my heal set for cases where I don't need to tank


If you like healing as prot more than dps that isn't a problem. honestly, what I do is tell the feral druid to go cat so I can MT everything, but I guess that I am lucky in that regard.
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Postby Cearn » Sun Dec 28, 2008 10:24 am

So which would be the Shield of choice for DPS as prot?
The Skull of Ruin seems to beat the Wall of Terror in terms of DPS.
But what about the Royal Crest of Lordaeron or Barricade of Eternity with hit/expertise?
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Postby Conaan! » Sun Dec 28, 2008 10:59 am

Cearn wrote:So which would be the Shield of choice for DPS as prot?
The Skull of Ruin seems to beat the Wall of Terror in terms of DPS.
But what about the Royal Crest of Lordaeron or Barricade of Eternity with hit/expertise?


imo skull of ruin would be better, though the wall of terror might come out just a tiny bit ahead with the extra strength applying to all abilities
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Postby majiben » Sun Dec 28, 2008 11:05 am

Cearn wrote:So which would be the Shield of choice for DPS as prot?
The Skull of Ruin seems to beat the Wall of Terror in terms of DPS.
But what about the Royal Crest of Lordaeron or Barricade of Eternity with hit/expertise?


Barricade of Eternity wins because it has more BV and str.

As far as The Skull of Ruin versus Wall of Terror It's a matter of which increases dps more, 13 str or 10 BV. My guess is 13 str will eek out a win.
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Postby knaughty » Sun Dec 28, 2008 4:24 pm

Utterly anecdotal and no numbers to back it up, but...

I'm doing my dailies in my full tanking set now. Tried wearing my off-spec ret gear, and:
• Things took longer to die.
• I took a LOT more damage.

Your ret gear has to be very good to match efficiency of your tanking gear. It isn't worth dropping a couple of tiers to swap in ret pieces.
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Postby Zironic » Sun Dec 28, 2008 6:47 pm

I suspect you'll find that you'll do the highest possible prot DPS in your blockvalue set since ShoR is such a huge % of your total damage and scales really really well.

Fun fact, I do more DPS on patchwerk as prot spec in prot gear being the maintank then I do as ret in ret gear.
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Postby majiben » Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:47 pm

Zironic wrote:I suspect you'll find that you'll do the highest possible prot DPS in your blockvalue set since ShoR is such a huge % of your total damage and scales really really well.

Fun fact, I do more DPS on patchwerk as prot spec in prot gear being the maintank then I do as ret in ret gear.
You can't beat 2k dps raid buffed as ret?
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Postby Fridmarr » Sun Dec 28, 2008 9:51 pm

Majiben wrote:
Zironic wrote:I suspect you'll find that you'll do the highest possible prot DPS in your blockvalue set since ShoR is such a huge % of your total damage and scales really really well.

Fun fact, I do more DPS on patchwerk as prot spec in prot gear being the maintank then I do as ret in ret gear.
You can't beat 2k dps raid buffed as ret?


I seem to do between 2500-2800 DPS on 25 man patch. Our ret pally does a little over 3k DPS, but she has decent gear. If I were to put on my lower Ilevel ret gear, I'd probably lose DPS.
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Postby knaughty » Sun Dec 28, 2008 11:24 pm

Did Patchwerk last night, 19 people, so probably missing some buffs (EG: only one shaman, resto spec). Also took 5 minutes, rather than 3, so it's a little more "long term".

I did 2.6k DPS, deliberately using 969, no Shor bug, and tried to remember not to use Exorcism other than on the pull (hit it one other time for twice total).

Our ret pally, in worse gear than me, did over 3.5k.

If you can beat your ret pally, he fails.
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Postby Rhiannon » Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:59 am

Elsie wrote:Also, you're wrong. Some of the best "gearing up" pieces are leather. Yes, in the end ret will wear nothing but plate. However, simply washing and saying "ret gear has more str" is far from correct. A more probably statement is "ret gear has more AP." A fair example is the leather DPS belt from naxx and gloves from pinnacle - both of which are better than blues and the leather belt is superior to the (typical) str girdle by a small margin for ret. A ret set can include -much- more expertise that is less desirable for protection due to talents, glyphs, and worse scaling (white hits and HotR vs white hits, crusader strike, divine storm).


Actually, a lot of ilevel 226 leather drops are best in slot for ret regardless of being itemised with ap/agi rather than str/crit simply due to there not being ilevel 226 plate equivalents, and leather being able to itemise ap/crit/agi at the same time. If plate was allowed to itemise str/ap/crit at the same time it'd be great, but so many plate pieces carry excesses of haste and arp which are a poor use of item budget for ret.
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Postby Andris » Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:40 am

I'm seeing a lot of people suggest that stacking block value will do more damage than strength, because ShoR is such a large component of our damage... but I think you may be relying too much on the double-ShoR bug and "big numbers" syndrome. (math follows)

The math on SBV is pretty clear:

1 SBV = 1.7dmg * (1+crit%) per 6s without ShoR bug, per 3s with ShoR.

That means 1 SBV ~ 0.7 dps with the ShoR bug if you have ~24% raidbuffed crit.

Assuming that we're using SoB for the regen:

1 AP = 0.07 (white) + 0.16/9(JoB) + 0.07*4/6(HotR)
1 AP ~ 0.14 dps (pre crit), or 0.17dps with 24% crit.

1 Str = 1.15 *( 0.5 SBV + 2 AP)
1 Str = 1.2 dps with 24% crit.

Given that SBV is itemized at about 0.65 of ilvl, that seems to indicate that strength and SBV are amazingly even for damage output with the ShoR bug. AP is going to be a bad 3rd place, because it gets neither the shield block value component nor the Divine Strength multiplier.

If you don't count the ShoR bug, then you get (at 24% crit)

1 SBV = 0.35 dps
1 AP = 0.17 dps
1 Str = 0.8 dps

And Strength is the winner, followed by SBV, and then AP.

So, for DPS post 3.0.8, it looks like STR > SBV > AP, and you can actually sorta put the above weights on things. If you have enough mana to consecrate or use exorcism/holy wrath, then AP and STR get slightly better, but I've found that I start to get fairly lean by the end of a fight without consecrate when I'm dpsing. (I do consecrate during Avenging Wrath.)

And now I can go plug these numbers into LootRank if I want. Crit, Hit and Expertise are going to be based on your actual DPS; if we assume 1600 dps and 0 hit, 0 expertise, and 20% (raidbuffed + talents) crit, we'd get:

hit ~ 16 dps/32 rating = 0.5 dps
expertise ~ 16 dps/32 rating = 0.5 dps
crit ~ 13 dps/46 rating = 0.29 dps

Note that base dps before crits would be about 1333 (and 20% crit raises it to 1600), so an additional 1% crit is another 1333 avg. dps doubled to 2666 1% of the time. As such, crit is less useful unless you can get a larger multiplier or extra bonuses from talents (like Vindication).

With all of that said, shield block value trinkets are probably a good way to go unless you have high crit (at which point something like Mirror of Truth is going to win out). Something like the Autoblocker/Coren's Lucky Coin end up adding 59 SBV + 33 SBV average, which would work out to 64 dps with the ShoR bug, or 32 without.
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Postby dunnark » Mon Dec 29, 2008 2:00 pm

Great post Andris, any chance you can work Stamina value since it goes into sp into your weighting?
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Postby Andris » Mon Dec 29, 2008 2:49 pm

Sure, I just realized I forgot to include Haste rating as well:

Also, all the damage listed above is actually 22% low except for judgement damage, because all the rest qualify (I think) as melee attacks. Although ISTR that Shield of Righteousness can't be cast while silenced, while Hammer of the Righteous can. Does that mean that ShoR is not a melee attack for the purposes of Seal of Blood? I'll have to check.

Spell Power will increase your DPS by increasing your Judgement of Blood, and Consecrate if you have mana to burn:

1 SP = 0.25dps/9s (JoB) + 0.04dps (consecrate)

So, 1 SP = 0.03dps, plus 0.04dps if you can use consecrate
1 AP adds 0.04dps to your consecrate as well.

1 Stamina = 0.3 spell power = 0.009dps, plus 0.012 dps to consecrate.

Short answer: Stamina adds a negligible amount of damage. 100 stamina ~ 1 strength with the ShoR bug. If you have excess mana, 50 stamina = 1 strength.

Haste rating increases our damage from white attacks only; everything else is GCD-limited. Assuming 0 haste, 1600dps (per above), and 30% of damage from melee swings/SoB:

1 haste ~ 4.8dps/32 = 0.15dps

Adding in SoB to the above (assuming that SoB procs off of melee, HotR and ShoR), we end up with:

1 Strength: 0.96 dps with ShoR bug, 0.71 without ShoR bug.
(if SoB can't proc off of ShoR, this is 0.87/0.67)
1 AP: 0.2 dps
1 SBV: 0.85 dps with ShoR bug, 0.43 without ShoR bug.
(if SoB can't proc off of ShoR, this is 0.7/0.35)
1 hit: 0.5 dps
1 expertise: 0.5 dps
1 crit: 0.29 dps
1 haste: 0.15dps
1 Stamina: 0.01dps (plus another 0.01dps if lots of mana)

TLDR: stack Strength. SBV, hit and expertise are better than crit, but Strength is better than hit/expertise and even SBV, assuming you're close to the 1600dps/24% buffed crit numbers.
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