Mitigation vs. Avoidance

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Mitigation vs. Avoidance

Postby Dorvan » Tue Apr 10, 2007 3:20 pm

I keep an eye on the Warrior forums from time to time, and I found this little gem on mitigation (armor and stamina) vs avoidance (defense/dodge). I haven't looked through all of it yet, but it's a good read with some competing opinions:

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa ... 9683&sid=1
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Postby Aergis » Tue Apr 10, 2007 5:35 pm

yeah, nice read there, have been following it since they started. Although I'm still undecided...

Posted this in there a few days ago as well, seeing as how warriors have 2 years+ experience more than us.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa ... 1&pageNo=1


I "sidegraded" most of my gems to +8 dodge, and hit 26.8% dodge unbuffed, 34% ish buffed, and lost about 800 hp. Made the prince fight ALOT easier, but nightbane was tougher than before. The dodge doesn't work at all for Nightbanes flame breath or fire dot's, so the HP is more helpful there.

Will be trying it on Maulgar this weekend, Gruul if we can get him down.
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Postby Jensaarai » Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:33 am

Wow...this is definitely worth reading more on...thanks a lot for this.
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Postby Torakka » Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:52 am

Really worth reading, thanks for the link. I must really consider swapping some gems to Solid Stars of Elune.
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Postby Lore » Wed Apr 11, 2007 7:08 am

Yeah, this is something that the endgame Warrior tanks have known for a while. This is why Druid tanks are easier to heal than Paladin tanks - we stack avoidance to push crushes off, they stack stamina and armor because they don't have anything else to stack. The end result is that you have the potential to take a bit more damage, but you DON'T have the potential to get 1- or 2-shot by not dodging/parrying that Hurtful Strike or whatever. The higher your HP pool, or "effective" HP pool, the longer it takes for you to go from 100% to dead, all the time.

As it pertains to Paladins, this is largely a problem with our class and itemization that hopefully will be fixed "soon." We have to stack a bunch of avoidance to push CB's off the hit table, which makes it harder for us to stack Stamina and Armor. Once you do get to uncrushable, however, it's best to start focusing on beefing up your mitigation - HP and armor - than to get more avoidance.
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Postby Lore » Wed Apr 11, 2007 7:25 am

Also don't listen to the people who claim that 50% avoidance (dodge/parry) is "just as good" as 50% mitigation. Examine the following scenario:

You have 15k health fully raid buffed.
Boss normally hits you for 8k.

If you have 50% mitigation (incoming damage reduced by 50%), this will happen (every time):
Boss hits you for 4k.
Boss hits you for 4k.
You are now at 7k hit points. Boss can actually hit you a 3rd time and you'll still be alive.

If you have 50% avoidance, there are several possibilities. The best, and the one that those who stack avoidance champion, is the following:
Boss attacks. You dodge.
Boss attacks. You parry.
You are now still at 15k health. Boss can hit you and you'll still be alive.

The second, and the one that most who stack avoidance incorrectly claim to be equal, is this:
Boss attacks. You dodge.
Boss hits you for 8k.
You are now at 7k hit points. They'll tell you that this means 50% avoidance = 50% mitigation because the boss attacked the same amount of times and dealt the same amount of damage, but there's one important detail: If the boss hits you again, you die. There is no 3rd or 4th possible hit.

And then there's this possibility, which really puts the nail in the coffin:
Boss hits you for 8k.
Boss hits you for 8k.
You die.

1% reduced damage taken (or being able to take 1% more damage) is better than 1% chance to avoid damage, always.

I've seen many, many tanks complain about how "hard" endgame tanking is because bosses can "randomly" hit you 3-4 times in a row. What they don't realize is that you can remove that randomness very easily by stacking mitigation instead of stacking avoidance.
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Postby Kathryn » Wed Apr 11, 2007 7:44 am

More and more i'm getting crushable while unbuffed, yet un-crushable w/ holy shield when buffed, in order to gain Stam and armor...

Though i've been toying with the idea of leaving around 5% room for crushes while holy shield is up because on the prince, for example, since he swings very fast the fact that you almost always block (with Holy shield up) and the higher miss rate pushing normal hits off... make sure that crushings happens when hits connect.

So the idea was leaving a 5% crush chance while blocking, spread the crushes like this:

Block block crush block crush block.

Instead of:

Block block block block crush crush.

Lessening the back to back crushes chance.
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Postby Catarine » Wed Apr 11, 2007 9:38 am

Very interesting, Kathryn.
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Postby Jensaarai » Wed Apr 11, 2007 1:10 pm

Well, this may make an upcoming decision easier for me. Once Arc finally drops my damn Elementium Band of the Sentry, I will be able to lose Andormu's Tear and Dabiri's Enigma and replace them with the EBotS and Argussian Compass, respectively. This is an over 600hp gain, but at a fairly large cost of dodge rating, mostly, and miss/parry, around 1.5% I believe. The only problem is I believe I will be crushable again, without the 15 shield block rating, so I may have to wait until my T4 helm/shoulders...or only replace the Ring for the time being. I'll log in and post the calculations from TankPoints so you guys can see exactly where I'd end up.
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Postby Jensaarai » Wed Apr 11, 2007 1:45 pm

Ok.

TankPoints before: 43977. After: 45082. Difference: 1105

Miss: Before: 10.36% After: 10.00% Difference: -0.36%

Dodge: Before: 23.32% After: 22.59% Difference: -0.73%

Parry: Before: 15.96% After: 15.60% Difference: -0.36%

Block: Before: 17.80% After: 15.54% Difference: -2.26%

Total Reduction: Before: 75.17% After: 74.45% Difference: -0.72%

HP: Before: 10917. After: 11517. Difference: 600HP (I do not think this includes Sacred Duty).

Total avoidance before: 102.44% after: 98.73% difference: 3.71%

This is all unbuffed. But especially keeping in mind the upcoming changes, and agility pot, +1.4%, still leaves me with over 2% to be crushed. However, I gain 600HP.


Now, I could only replace the ring, and leave the trinket. This would leave me with:

HP: +240HP
Miss: 10.52%, difference +0.16%
Dodge: 23.11%, difference -0.11%
Parry: 16.12%, difference +0.16%
Block: 16.06%, difference -1.74%
Total avoidance: 100.81%, buffed over 102.4% (agility pot (35) and mark of the wild and kings).



So I guess now there's no contest. I do not want to leave myself crushable...I will have to wait until T4 Helm/Shoulders to replace the trinket, it looks like, because I lose too much avoidance from the loss of 30 defense rating.

This kind of blows, though, because there aren't many upgrades I'm expecting before High King and Prince. Probably the Girdle of the Immovable, but there I LOSE shield block rating so I'll become even more vulnerable to crushing blows...and then the Panzar'thar Breastplate, but there I will lose a LOT of defense and dodge rating, I don't know if I'd still be uncrittable or not. and I want my HP to be over 11.1k or so unbuffed before these encounters.

What do you think?
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Postby Lore » Wed Apr 11, 2007 1:50 pm

I only have like 10.4k unbuffed HP at the moment and I do fine. Depends largely on your healers.

I also need to upgrade a few key pieces of gear, which will net me a lot more stamina.
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Postby Jensaarai » Wed Apr 11, 2007 8:46 pm

Yeah our healers are fairly new...by fairly I mean like in the past week or two...and still in very bad gear...>.<

Actually, though, I wore both the ring and the compass tonight (got the ring in an Arc run before Kara, w00t) and I only got crushed maybe...3 times during R&J (tanking Romulo) and Curator, with multiple attempts on Curator because, well, hunter dps sucks.


And I believe, though I'm not quite certain, that they fixed the instant cast bug. I did not notice any crushes when I cast consecrate or judgement or exorcism all night...maybe one...but it was so out of place this time I just don't know...other nights it's been a lot worse...here's to hoping it actually was fixed, because I know it helped a LOT. An amazing difference in crushings.
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Postby Lore » Thu Apr 12, 2007 6:35 am

Nah I noticed the bug a LOT on Romulo the other night. It's not fixed.
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Postby Kathryn » Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:03 am

Here are my stats when i started Kara:
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^--- I had 12.7k armor.

Here are my stats now:
Image
2 pieces changed (belt, neck), Lots of socket changes. (still 500 def)
Standar buffs + Rum, No Elixirs / flask / potions, food.
I was getting to 14.1k hp with imp.

That leaves me at 4.3% chance to get crushed while shield block is active.
Though i can say, i am now MUCH MUCH easyer to keep up.

The 4.3% chance to get crushed awkwardly helps i think, on Dual wield mobs (moroes / romulo) i have more HP and Armor so the crushes are less a source of panic, but more importanly i dont block 4 times in a row so the odds of:

Block Block Block Block Crush Crush

Are turned into:

Block Block Crush Block Crush Block

or

Block block Crush Block Block crush

and the likes 4.3% of the time.

So i'm less subjective to spikes... at least that's what my kara run log showed.
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Postby Kathryn » Thu Apr 12, 2007 8:43 am

On another note, i might have just got lucky because it could also mean

crush crush crush block block >.>;

In any cases i can close the 4.3% gap easyly i'll try to get more hard data on it.
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