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Paladin vs warrior threat generation beyond Karazhan

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Postby kvark » Mon Aug 27, 2007 12:28 am

I strongly belive it really makes a huge difference who you're measuring up to. All warriors seems to have different ways to generate agro, same way me and you do.
I have at best 300 spelldamage, and I seriously out-TPS our warriors on gruul etc. Reading this thread I really start to belive our tanks are mostly slackers :)
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Postby Kvaern » Mon Aug 27, 2007 2:25 am

enbee wrote:
Kvaern wrote:
enbee wrote:I have over 400 spelldmg raidbuffed and I don't put out more threat then our mt, about the same, we fight over trash mobs all the time, and it goes either way depending on crits/misses/parries. Paladins aren't the single target threat masters as some claim we are :<



There's no doubt an SSC/TK geared paladin puts out more threat than a similary geared warrior.


hmm :)

Can't say I agree with that, unless you get to block half your holy shield charges on average each 10 secs or more on whatever you're tanking.

If you're convinced this is true you should be looking at the way your warriors play, they might not be very efficient. I mean I have a couple warrior tanks in my guild, one who does more or less the same TPS as me, generally more on slowhitters, and 2 who dont even do 70% of my TPS, warrior is considerably harder to get a good rotation going with for optimal TPS output, and alot of them seem to fail at it.



I think maybe you should be looking at your group setups.

Paladins can get a shitload more synergy from proper group setups than warriors.
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Postby ulushnar » Mon Aug 27, 2007 2:31 am

I upgraded my weapon at the weekend to the LC exalted one and I found that by equipping the Figurine of the Colossus and the D3 breastplate instead of the Violet Eye and the Jade Skull Breastplate that I only lost about 16 Sta. In total this gave me about 60 more unbuffed Spelldamage, but it really boosted my threat output.

Now if only I could get the T4 shoulders off Maulgar. *sigh*
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Postby enbee » Mon Aug 27, 2007 9:06 am

Kvaern wrote:
enbee wrote:
Kvaern wrote:
enbee wrote:I have over 400 spelldmg raidbuffed and I don't put out more threat then our mt, about the same, we fight over trash mobs all the time, and it goes either way depending on crits/misses/parries. Paladins aren't the single target threat masters as some claim we are :<



There's no doubt an SSC/TK geared paladin puts out more threat than a similary geared warrior.


hmm :)

Can't say I agree with that, unless you get to block half your holy shield charges on average each 10 secs or more on whatever you're tanking.

If you're convinced this is true you should be looking at the way your warriors play, they might not be very efficient. I mean I have a couple warrior tanks in my guild, one who does more or less the same TPS as me, generally more on slowhitters, and 2 who dont even do 70% of my TPS, warrior is considerably harder to get a good rotation going with for optimal TPS output, and alot of them seem to fail at it.



I think maybe you should be looking at your group setups.

Paladins can get a shitload more synergy from proper group setups than warriors.


Well yes if you have an elemental/resto shammy at your disposal and a shadowpriest, but the same can be said if a warrior has a feral druid and an enhance shaman.
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Postby Kvaern » Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:56 pm

Ret paladin.
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Postby enbee » Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:46 pm

Kvaern wrote:Ret paladin.


sadly I can't convince my gm to get one untill the ret patch -_-, not a feasable option, for most tonkadins.
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Postby Nymeros » Mon Aug 27, 2007 7:25 pm

enbee wrote:
Kvaern wrote:Ret paladin.


sadly I can't convince my gm to get one untill the ret patch -_-, not a feasable option, for most tonkadins.


Then Shockadin.
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Postby enbee » Tue Aug 28, 2007 10:22 am

Nymeros wrote:
enbee wrote:
Kvaern wrote:Ret paladin.


sadly I can't convince my gm to get one untill the ret patch -_-, not a feasable option, for most tonkadins.


Then Shockadin.


you mean a paladin healer with a gimped spec? I don't think I can convince any of our holys to get that :<
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Postby jere » Tue Aug 28, 2007 10:41 am

enbee wrote:
Nymeros wrote:
Then Shockadin.


you mean a paladin healer with a gimped spec? I don't think I can convince any of our holys to get that :<


It's not that gimped...you lose like Divine Illumination and maybe some points in Holy Guidance. Shockadins can heal fine in raids and are very close to pure holy paladins in terms of healing.
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Postby Eliane » Tue Aug 28, 2007 10:44 am

I've never had the luxuary of a rettribution paladin with in on raids, but I sure would like to see what it's like.

As for warrior/paladin tps, me and my warrior tank buddy put out about the same amout of tps most of the time (398 spelldamage unbuffed) with him generating slightly more on slow hitting mobs and when he get crit streakes.

/wave Enbee
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Postby Nymeros » Tue Aug 28, 2007 11:24 am

enbee wrote:you mean a paladin healer with a gimped spec? I don't think I can convince any of our holys to get that :<


What's so "gimped" about it?

All they lose is Kings (which you have) and Divine Illumination.
They gain a lot of offensive power for PvP and grinding.
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Postby nebs » Tue Aug 28, 2007 1:00 pm

Hello everyone, im currently tanking SSC/TK content on EU servers. I've been tanking since beta.

Im facing extreme threat loss when tanking raid content, and im far behind warriors and even more feral druids when its about generating threat.

In a MT1 situation (non-undead boss) i barely reach 700-800 sustained threat, wile warriors reach 800-1000 and feral druids 1000 and above.

I have tried to maximise my spell damage using casters rings, wizard oil, massive spell damage gear losing significant avoidance, but my threat doesnt improve much, and improves slower than warriors. I currently have ~450 spelldamage fully and 7% spell hit fully buffed and 4/5 Justicar.


I did some researchs and found 3 major reasons for this :

- the 17% spell resist from bosses is killed me. Its just too hard to retrieve a normal level of threat if i have to stack stamina and mitigation.

- holy shield (and blessing of sanctuary) scales extremely poorly with spell damage. With 400 spell damage each block gains 20 damage, its terrible.

- No dump aggro ability like heroic strike means i have only 2 solutions to improve my threat, block more or get more spelldamage. On top of that, despite my efforts my abilities cant be used at 100% with cooldowns overlaps.

I saw nothing in Prot review 2.3 to adress those matters, and start to be very worried about this. Am i the only one in this case ? Or is something wrong with my gear/template/skill ? Does it get better in BT/Hyjal ?

Thanks.
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Postby kedalic » Wed Aug 29, 2007 7:33 am

I sustained 1.7k TPS last night tanking the hunter + pet on karathess, and can also stay within 5k threat of our warrior OR druid MT while OTing Gruul. Lastly, I can hold VR for over 50% of the fight now, over 2 ferals and a prot warrior, including with the prot warrior getting a 3 hunter MD rotation. The key pieces are the 2 piece t4 bonus, spell hit, spell dmg consumables, and judging crusader. I hit 580 spell dmg in my threat gear with consumables, and sit at about 450 with mitigation gear on.

For one piece, you need to sustain 1.5k DPS on yourself to achieve enough mana regen to go full threat cycle. If you aren't taking that much dmg, you need a shadow priest and pots to sustain your threat, scaled by how much less than that your incoming dps is.

Another bit is, until you get 500+ spell dmg, you will have less snap aggro than a feral or a warrior, which can be part of your perception of doing less TPS on things like raid trash. A SSC class warrior will shield slam for 600-700ish, which is about 1.2k-1.3k threat, with revenge causing another 670ish in threat. Your average SoR judgement needs to hit 700 before you can equal that snap aggro, although your average block proc is good for 700ish threat (and scales faster than revenge does due to no cooldown). A feral will mangle for about 1.5k in snap threat, again making it hard for you to immediately pickup a trash mob faster than them. However, given a chance to judge crusader and drop consecrate, you will quickly outthreat them given sufficient spell dmg. Lastly, in generating threat, the icon of the sivler crescent is an amazing trinket, as well as wings, since popping those should let you EASILY sustain 1.5k-1.6k TPS on a single, non undead target, in threat gear.

Getting into more specifics, take a look at the paladin TPS spreadsheet, over at elitistjerks. In SSC class gear, a paladin should be putting out 900-1.1k TPS, whereas a warrior will only hit 800ish max (if you look at the warrior TPS spreadsheet there as well). That is primarily due to the better scaling of spell dmg for threat generation, and group synergies like shadowpriests, ret pallies, or elemental shamans being able to buff you more than a warrior can be buffed.
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Postby Vanifae » Wed Aug 29, 2007 7:38 am

Interesting Kedalic, can you post a WWS parse?
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Postby Emmi » Wed Aug 29, 2007 12:22 pm

My spell damage is currently under 200 (157 Unbuffed, to be exact). My guild has cleared 5/6 SSC and 1/4 TK (We wouldn't be in TK if not for VR; our goal is to get SSC cleared, then work on TK).

I have only recently run into threat issues, not because my spell damage is too low, but because my avoidance is too high.

As for threat, I have noticed that when an identical mob is attacking both myself and our Warrior tank, our threat is generally even, and remains so. Shield Block Value is a relatively easy to come by stat, and our Warriors tend to lead with Shield Slam, which does about as much threat as a "normal" JoR.

Edit to add: We do a ton of CC on trash, so using Consecrate and Avenger's Shield is pretty much out of the question unless it is on a boss fight. I am also either the first tank to have their mob killed or the second, with a couple of exceptions.

My block percent is just over 29%, and I have noticed that since I have upped my Dodge and Parry percents to their current levels, I am blocking less, and as a result, generating significantly less threat. This also leads to mana starvation since I am not taking damage.

A few weeks ago, I started looking to the T4 vs T5 tanking gear differences. While the actual mitigation difference is very slight (something like +1.48% total difference from T4 to T5), the actual differences are in reducing our avoidance (Dodge and Parry) and increasing our Block Value and Block Percent to compensate.

As a result, we still take a little less over-all damage, but we tend to not be so mana-starved due to avoidance from tier gear. It is this reason I will likely go after the rest of my T5 instead of keeping my T4 and skipping to T6 as I had planned; it also helps my increasing our threat via Holy Shield blocks (procs).

Of course, I could be way off as far as my maths/mitigation are concerned, but it makes a crooked sort of sense to me. I think if we put our stats in the right place, with Holy Shield, we do not need to stack 300+ spell damage, but can get away with 180-200 the further along we go. Of course, those numbers I just pulled out of my hat, based on what I have experienced.

As a note: I use both KTM and Omen, as does most of my guild, to get a relative representation of overall threat. Though KTM is pretty useless in AoE fights.
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