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No Reckoning?

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Postby majiben » Tue Dec 02, 2008 12:50 pm

jcamper1337 wrote:I dont see how Not using recokning is gonna give me better threat gen at all
Using reckoning does increase your threat generation. SotP increases it more however and works while off tanking. It's classic opportunity loss.
Last edited by majiben on Tue Dec 02, 2008 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Elsie » Tue Dec 02, 2008 12:50 pm

re: JCamper:
Okay, well we've been stating:

1. Reckoning adds damage
2. Reckoning is less threat than Seals of the Pure
3. Reckoning is less threat than Conviction

SotP and Conviction are simply better talents for a tank's job. Therefore, there's no reason to ever take reckoning for threat, and possibly damage.

Improved Judgment 2/2 is generally advised against because the rotation is 96969... so reducing it to 8s just means it's off CD faster but you can't use it. That's why 1/2 is recommended. Now, it can be handy if you can't use exorcism and consecrate - but those situations are few and far between.

So it comes down to Kings being necessary with less than 4 paladins and no dps warrior, better threat (and possibly dps) talents existing, and better utility talents existing in general.
Guardian's favor again is a situational talent. The only issue with roots is the inability to build threat on the target which one application of the untalented version allows me to build enough threat for any additional applications to not matter if the mob is even left alive for a second application. The only boss fight in recent memory were roots have played a large part was Vashj Phase 1. Even then the untalented version was enough to make me main tank for that fight.

I've actually kind of wanted this talent when I was gearing up and did Heroic Gundrak and, iirc, the spider heroics. But yes, very unnecessary.
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Postby jcamper1337 » Tue Dec 02, 2008 1:03 pm

ok I cant not take kings in my guild because we only have 1 raiding ret pally and he dosent take kings and neither do any of out holy pallys. SO that means Kings is my job so I guess if i Drop reckoing for
Seals of the Pure and or Conviction I would be better Off

I also I didnt use the 9696 rotation I was using a 9 rotation putting the Shield Slam into that rotation because it was allowing me To use the Libram of Obstruction to its max capablity.
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Postby Elsie » Tue Dec 02, 2008 1:09 pm

jcamper1337 wrote:ok I cant not take kings in my guild because we only have 1 raiding ret pally and he dosent take kings and neither do any of out holy pallys. SO that means Kings is my job so I guess if i Drop reckoing for
Seals of the Pure and or Conviction I would be better Off

I also I didnt use the 9696 rotation I was using a 9 rotation putting the Shield Slam into that rotation because it was allowing me To use the Libram of Obstruction to its max capablity.

If someone could Show me a spec using Seals of the Pure or COnviction I would be enclined to try it

Your ret paladin is playing subpar, two people need kings in order to maximize efficiency. Your ret paladin also only has about 54 damage talents so he's wasting raid space with pvp talents.

You're losing tps overall by saving your shield of the righteous. If you delay it two seconds for 400 BV, after 3 delays you'll have gained 1200 damage and lost 2500+

5/X/6 is the standard sotp build.
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Postby jcamper1337 » Tue Dec 02, 2008 1:13 pm

thank you all for all your help Majiben has posted a really good spec That I am gonna try out once servers get back up. Im keeping Kings because I hate to say it but my guild mates that play paladins are for a lack of a better term stupid.

They think Its my job to have Kings and they dont need it. Little do they know I cant raid untill Mid January. All i can say is Have fun in Naxx with no Kings
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Postby majiben » Tue Dec 02, 2008 1:18 pm

Best of luck!
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Postby thenNATEgoes » Tue Dec 02, 2008 1:41 pm

Majiben wrote:Definetly not core tanking talents. If you need a trash mob prema stunned ora boss interupted, you bring a rogue or warrior. They do it much better we can even talented. If anything was a core prot talent it would be Kings. Can you really tell me that you have a trash pack so dangerous that you need a second stun from the tank within 30 seconds or it is too dangerous? A highly situational and weaker talented than rogue and warrior baseline talent is not a core ability.


I can argue with that last comment, deep wounds core ability, righteous vegence torwards the end of our tree. 10% damage reduction baseline stance dance, ours is both talented one in the beginning of the tree and one at the end of the tree. Different classes are different.

There are far to many useful prot talents that buff your ability to survive, regardless. Other than to waste 5 points on a talent that you don't even use on yourself.

Elsie wrote:Improved HoJ is largely useless. As a stun, it's handy but completely unnecessary very quickly in heroics and worthless in raids due to immunity. As an interrupt, 30s is worthless as you are tanking, usually on GCD, and DK/warrior/rogue/shaman/mage all have a faster CD, better interrupt.

PoJ is a tier 3 talent. You need 12 points to get 2/2 PoJ. Benediction is, again, absolutely worthless for mana efficiency. Sanctuary provides more than enough, and if you're low there is divine plea. If you put points into benediction, it is worse than heart of the crusader Even With a Ret Paladin since at least you can judge a different mob, or the ret can die, or imp might if the ret is now being forced into kings. Once you get to heroics, I'm sure you'll see the same.


Let me start off with saying, threat is not an issue.

Less overall incoming damage, is after all less overall incoming damage. No argument. My zero-fail heroic group is Ret Paladin, Fury Warrior w/Commanding Presence and an Enhancement Shaman. All pulling mad deeps. I've never found a reason I'd need to judge another mob. (Focus Fire) So that me and the ret have a steady inc of both mana & hp. The point of heart of the crusader is focus fire 3% increase in critical strike to everyone attacking it, so I'm not entirely sure what benefit it would server if I was judging a different target and not burning down the same one everyone else is.

Even with dps pulling well over 2k in heroics, threat is not an issue. I can sacrafice my GCD for less incoming damage.
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Postby BlackKnight6667 » Tue Dec 02, 2008 1:47 pm

I used it on my leveling spec, then went kings. However I'm pretty sure once my guild starts 25 mans I'll have 1-2 ret pali in the raid that have Kings, so Reck may creap back into my spec as the filler. Though this time I'll only take enough points to get tm to the next step not full reck.

I believe it was here on Maintankadin that I saw the proc tables that showed that 3-4 points in it was nearly as good as 5 points in. The proc differences were nominal.
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Postby Zehn - Vhex » Tue Dec 02, 2008 5:29 pm

Personally I have 3 different tanking spec's. HoJ is included in my 'day to day' prot spec simply because it's useful whenever you're not tanking a raid boss.

However, the content that you benefit most from HoJ on is largely trivial, so it's a bit of a wash.

I'm finding divinge guardian to be pretty useful though. Not particularily for personal survival mind you, but with the new "2 tanks for nearly everything" philosophy it's pretty awesome. Between that and BoSacrafice you basically can give someone else a second shield wall.

If you're not the MT and the raid is taking damage, it's pretty awesome. And even when you're the MT, several bosses have a phase where they don't target anyone. It's nice for Malygos vortex especially, can be used on Saphhrion during an air phase if a blizzard is about to hit the raid, it's not entirely terrible on heigen ddr if someone failsteps. I tend to pop it on loatheb to absorb one of the impending dooms just for kicks.

With content as trivial as it is it's not exactly a game changer, but it has interesting uses.

And it trumps the everliving heck out of the white damage tps you gain from reckoning.
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Postby Flipthebird » Wed Dec 03, 2008 8:37 am

Majiben wrote:Guardian's favor again is a situational talent. The only issue with roots is the inability to build threat on the target which one application of the untalented version allows me to build enough threat for any additional applications to not matter if the mob is even left alive for a second application. The only boss fight in recent memory were roots have played a large part was Vashj Phase 1. Even then the untalented version was enough to make me main tank for that fight.


I may just be remembering incorrectly here, but can't you just dispell most rooting effects? or we talking about a different rooting effect that i don't know of?
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Postby majiben » Wed Dec 03, 2008 8:50 am

Flipthebird wrote:
Majiben wrote:Guardian's favor again is a situational talent. The only issue with roots is the inability to build threat on the target which one application of the untalented version allows me to build enough threat for any additional applications to not matter if the mob is even left alive for a second application. The only boss fight in recent memory were roots have played a large part was Vashj Phase 1. Even then the untalented version was enough to make me main tank for that fight.
I may just be remembering incorrectly here, but can't you just dispell most rooting effects? or we talking about a different rooting effect that i don't know of?
Most can be dispelled, but not all. Additionally HoF can be used preemptively and against multiple roots/snares while cleanse can not.
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Postby Elsie » Wed Dec 03, 2008 10:15 am

Less overall incoming damage, is after all less overall incoming damage. No argument. My zero-fail heroic group is Ret Paladin, Fury Warrior w/Commanding Presence and an Enhancement Shaman. All pulling mad deeps. I've never found a reason I'd need to judge another mob. (Focus Fire) So that me and the ret have a steady inc of both mana & hp. The point of heart of the crusader is focus fire 3% increase in critical strike to everyone attacking it, so I'm not entirely sure what benefit it would server if I was judging a different target and not burning down the same one everyone else is.

Actually, all the classes you mentioned would benefit from heart of the crusade on an additional mov due to Hammer of the Righteous, arms whirlwind abilities, divine storm, and... whatever aoe enhancement shaman has that I don't remember. Your group actually has a lot of aoe damage that you don't seem to realize.

Also 90% the time I switch mobs way before my DPS so they have a new assist target ASAP. Ret shouldn't be magically saving judgment for that, and it's still marginally better than saving 6% mana when you use an ability. Especially for solo and burst threat.


And you can dispel any magical or poison root/snare with cleanse, but non-magical (web, hamstring, etc) can only be removed with trinkets, DS, and HoF.
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Postby daemonym » Wed Dec 03, 2008 1:57 pm

dont forget about imp devotion aura if you are able to spec into it, that's a huge amount of armor boost. even with DR involved, free armor is still free and still more than you had before. stay alive first, pewpew second.
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Postby Belarkan » Thu Dec 04, 2008 12:06 am

I haven't done math, but I'd go for the 5% extra critical if you want more threat.

<3 shield slam critical.
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