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What's your cycle?

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What's your cycle?

Postby ulushnar » Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:09 am

Ok, thusfar I've gotten by with my Tankadin basically spamming my abilities as soon as the cooldown's up, paying special mind to avoiding a GCD right before Holy Shield needs to be renewed.

Do any of you use a specific tanking cycle to maximise threat?
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Postby Voldiir » Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:38 am

Well... I don't really do mine to "maximize" threat... but there really is no way to get passed this.... Your cycle, no matter how you swing it, is a 10 second cycle that revolves around the Holy Shield cooldown. There are a lot of people who swear by Imp Judgement because they think the -2 seconds lets them cast it more often... well... it would... but there will always be an overlap in which they either have to wait on using Judgement, or risk a precious second of not having HS up.

Personally, I start with the longest cooldown. Holy Shield. That way, it guarantees that I always have it up the split second the cooldown is over. I follow HS, instantly (since it's not on the GCD) with Judgement and reseal (you'll find that I only have one point in Imp Judgement. 9 seconds is enough to always have it available on the next rotation. 8 seconds is a wasted point IMO). Then I'll use Consecration.

Now... with that rotation, you have plenty of time to use exorsism (if you can) after consecration, switch seals, pop a potion, use any tinkets, pop AW... since you have about 5ish seconds before you need to be spamming your Holy Shield again.

Over the course of an encounter, you should have about the same TPS as anyone else would have, plus RARELY ever having to worry about the GCD dipping into your Holy Shield useage. And, if you are like me, you can spend that wasted 1 point in Imp judgement elsewhere (totaly a personal preference based on the previously stated rotation).
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Postby Igrado » Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:05 am

Unless I've gone retarded, Judgement does not trigger the GCD, but HS does.

the seals do, but you only miss about 1 sealed swing by waiting for the GCD to come around from a HS.

but I'm with you on the Imp judgment being of questionable value
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Postby Voldiir » Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:32 am

Igrado wrote:Unless I've gone retarded, Judgement does not trigger the GCD, but HS does.

the seals do, but you only miss about 1 sealed swing by waiting for the GCD to come around from a HS.

but I'm with you on the Imp judgment being of questionable value


Yes the judgement can be used whenever, off the GCD, but using it once every 10 second cycle and having JoR up at near all times can't be much different (I've not run the math) than using it once every cycle +1 extra judgement every minute or so, but not having JoR up constantly.

Judging, then using HS, then resealing is usually more than one swing without JoR. In fact, depending on the timing, it can be upwards of 4 (reckoning and parrying increase your speed) and it also depends on the speed of your weapon how many swings you lose. I guess if you are using that god-aweful slow mace from Rep, yeah it's probably the same. But if you have something like the Gavel from Arena, that's a lot of extra JoR damage you are losing.

I've tried doing it that way... I find that my obsessive compulsiveness forces me to ALWAYS reseal after Judging out of habit. Which sometimes... led to HS not being up right away. I like the safety of knowing that HS is always up.

Like I said, It's purely personal preference. I keep my rotation the same at all times unless I don't need as much threat as I'm putting out, or am using too much mana, at which point I'll just delay casting Consecration. And this rotation allows me a free talant point to do whatever I want with.
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Postby adese » Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:23 am

Voldiir wrote:
Igrado wrote:Unless I've gone retarded, Judgement does not trigger the GCD, but HS does.

the seals do, but you only miss about 1 sealed swing by waiting for the GCD to come around from a HS.

but I'm with you on the Imp judgment being of questionable value


Yes the judgement can be used whenever, off the GCD, but using it once every 10 second cycle and having JoR up at near all times can't be much different (I've not run the math) than using it once every cycle +1 extra judgement every minute or so, but not having JoR up constantly.

Judging, then using HS, then resealing is usually more than one swing without JoR. In fact, depending on the timing, it can be upwards of 4 (reckoning and parrying increase your speed) and it also depends on the speed of your weapon how many swings you lose. I guess if you are using that god-aweful slow mace from Rep, yeah it's probably the same. But if you have something like the Gavel from Arena, that's a lot of extra JoR damage you are losing.

I've tried doing it that way... I find that my obsessive compulsiveness forces me to ALWAYS reseal after Judging out of habit. Which sometimes... led to HS not being up right away. I like the safety of knowing that HS is always up.


I was that way too, until I realized that I would lose one swing, tops, by going Judgement, HS, then SoR. IMO, the extra threat you get from more frequent JoR is better than 1-2 extra swings with SoR. (I haven't looked recently, but most likely a combat log parse would confirm that SoR makes up a relatively small portion of your threat. Personally, I think that HS accounts for the bulk of my threat generation.)

Just because you do something out of habit, doesn't mean that it always has to be done that way, or that is the best way to do it.

I haven't done much testing with it, but I think I have heard (and sort of found by just normal tanking), that if you cast Consecration before HS their cooldowns are less likely to overlap than if you cast HS first. I'll generally start off a fight like this:
Prep SoR before pulling/get aggro
Get aggro, cast Consecrate
Holy Shield
Judgement
SoR

And then I just use JoR, HS, Consecration/Exorcism (as needed) when they come up. If I have to choose between SoR and HS, HS wins and I'll do SoR once the GCD is up.
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Postby Karathos » Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:35 am

What I do is primarily situational, and in a large portion based on build (I am working with a non-AS threat build 0/38/23)

As I don't have AS and in many situations I am in it wouldn't work well.... I will often start out with a need to pull snap agro with a judged SoR, the Imp Judgement will allow me to cycle back to JotC/SoR quicker.

I will also start out with an 'early' HS on the countdown ... into a Judged SoR, AW, consecrate, JotC to SoR and then HS/Consecrate/Judge/Reseal as GCD allows.

When I am not in a snap agro situation (i.e. heroics/normal boss situations) I will preload JotC, HS, judge, SoR, AW, Consecrate and then into regular cycle.

AW may get 'preloaded' but I tend not to until making contact. When running with Imp Sanc Aura I tend to generate enough threat for my group.
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Postby Mortehl » Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:58 am

SoR
AS
HS
JoR
SoTC
Consecrate
HS
JoTC
SoR

Repeat from here.

Consecrate
HS
JoR
SoR
Arthas, we're coming for you. (Eventually)
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Postby Alixander » Tue Aug 21, 2007 10:52 am

My cycle depends on if I'm the puller or not:

If I am:
Exorcism/Avenger's Shield to pull.
As the mob is running at me I cast Holy Shield.
Once it's within 5 yrds I lead off with a JoW, and immediately use SoR.
Next drop a max rank Consecrate.
From there I alternate Judging SoR with keeping Holy Shield up.

If I am not pulling (say it's a crowded room and we want to pull one non-undead mob), it goes like this:
As the mob is running at me I cast Holy Shield.
Once it's within 5 yrds I lead off with a JoR, and immediately refresh SoR.
Next drop a max rank Consecrate.
Once the Judgement is ready to be recast I cast SoW and judge it, at which point I go back to SoR.
From there I alternate Judging SoR with keeping Holy Shield up.

Addendums: If I'm fighting multiple mobs, I will continue to refresh Consecrate, since the additional damage from multiple mobs will allow me to keep using Consecrate without running OOM. If I am fighting a single undead or demonic boss, due to the increased damage being dealt to me I will use Exorcism. For bosses that aren't undead or demons, the mana cost for Consecrate rarely justifies the low damage it does.

I've found that I can generally generate enough threat with AS to not need to lead off with a JoR. As long as I have SoR up, combined with the Consecration I would do anyway, it's usually enough.
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Postby Voldiir » Tue Aug 21, 2007 12:06 pm

adese wrote:
Voldiir wrote:
Igrado wrote:Unless I've gone retarded, Judgement does not trigger the GCD, but HS does.

the seals do, but you only miss about 1 sealed swing by waiting for the GCD to come around from a HS.

but I'm with you on the Imp judgment being of questionable value


Yes the judgement can be used whenever, off the GCD, but using it once every 10 second cycle and having JoR up at near all times can't be much different (I've not run the math) than using it once every cycle +1 extra judgement every minute or so, but not having JoR up constantly.

Judging, then using HS, then resealing is usually more than one swing without JoR. In fact, depending on the timing, it can be upwards of 4 (reckoning and parrying increase your speed) and it also depends on the speed of your weapon how many swings you lose. I guess if you are using that god-aweful slow mace from Rep, yeah it's probably the same. But if you have something like the Gavel from Arena, that's a lot of extra JoR damage you are losing.

I've tried doing it that way... I find that my obsessive compulsiveness forces me to ALWAYS reseal after Judging out of habit. Which sometimes... led to HS not being up right away. I like the safety of knowing that HS is always up.


I was that way too, until I realized that I would lose one swing, tops, by going Judgement, HS, then SoR. IMO, the extra threat you get from more frequent JoR is better than 1-2 extra swings with SoR. (I haven't looked recently, but most likely a combat log parse would confirm that SoR makes up a relatively small portion of your threat. Personally, I think that HS accounts for the bulk of my threat generation.)

Just because you do something out of habit, doesn't mean that it always has to be done that way, or that is the best way to do it.

I haven't done much testing with it, but I think I have heard (and sort of found by just normal tanking), that if you cast Consecration before HS their cooldowns are less likely to overlap than if you cast HS first. I'll generally start off a fight like this:
Prep SoR before pulling/get aggro
Get aggro, cast Consecrate
Holy Shield
Judgement
SoR

And then I just use JoR, HS, Consecration/Exorcism (as needed) when they come up. If I have to choose between SoR and HS, HS wins and I'll do SoR once the GCD is up.


Imp Judgement used first is great for snap aggro (effin warrs taunting off me!) and I agree that the ~2sec Judgement used before the HS creates more threat.

But again... personal preference. For me, it's just to "snappy" and less flowing. Actually, the extra judging uses up more mana (techicality, really) So I guess it all depends on the encounter, gear ratio, and your personal skill to do your rotation your own way.

I like mine :), even if I produce 10TPS less than others. That's the beauty of a paladin tank. We can always throw on more spelldamage if we need more threat. My gear is good enough (or diverse enough, really) that I can equip two, total SD rings, and remain uncrit and uncrush. I only lose a little HP too (still over 13k) and, depending on the situation, the increase in threat is superior.

And this way I get -1 minute offa BoP :lol:

Just because you do something out of habit, doesn't mean that it always has to be done that way, or that is the best way to do it.


True. However... that statement holds very little water in a game where people play how they want. Even If I went back to ye olde 0/49/12 and did the judgement first (which I've done before), I would find that I wouldn't like doing it that way. Even if it's "best." I just feel like you sometimes "skip a beat" in the way the timers are set up and it takes away from the comfortability of my paladin.

Personally, I think that HS accounts for the bulk of my threat generation


OH it does. :D And it rocks :twisted:
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Postby Lonso » Tue Aug 21, 2007 12:36 pm

Whenever possible, I try to use something higher threat than a melee swing with SoR to break crowd control. I use Avenger's Shield when it's up and there aren't other cc'd mobs in range. Most often I use JoR. My mages are used to my high threat and don't hold back. I can't tell which sheep Avenger's Shield hit on the pull so I want to hit with significant holy damage from the start. Even with Imp Judgement I'll sometimes find myself waiting 2 seconds before I can break the next sheep (call it poor planning). Imp Judgement improves my pace on trash.

JoR can act as a taunt when something unexpected or unpredictably timed happens and has a much shorter cooldown than Righteous Defense. This comes in very handy for rogues in Shattered Halls or Shadow Labyrinth, birds in The Eye and bats in SSC. Imp Judgement improves my control of these situations.

Even while tanking a boss, Imp Judgement has benefit. Void Reaver is a perfect example. I don't have aggro 100% of the fight. Once I get knocked below the other tanks on threat I stop casting Holy Shield (waste of mana) so its cool down is no longer of any concern. I get the judgement off many more times than I would without those 2 points which often allows me to pass the second tank and get aggro back when the new top tank gets knocked back.
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Postby Lore » Tue Aug 21, 2007 12:46 pm

I find it hard to keep a solid cycle going. Most commonly (after the pull is done and I'm just focusing on tanking) I end up doing something like this:

0.0: Holy Shield
1.5: Consecration
3.0: Judge->SoR
Wait for HS cooldown

The thing is, with Holy Shield on a 10 second cooldown and Consecration/Judgement on 8, there's still a gap. With Judgement it's not a big deal, I just occasionally have to take a swing or two without a seal up. But Consecration usually comes up at the same time as Holy Shield (or slightly before, depending on latency). Sometimes I'll try to wait til Holy Shield has around 2 seconds left before Consecrating again, but I'm not sure that's any more effective than just having those 2 seconds of no Consecrate each time, especially since after 5 or so Consecrates I'm right back where I started.
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Postby Lonso » Tue Aug 21, 2007 12:50 pm

Personally, I think that HS accounts for the bulk of my threat generation


OH it does. :D And it rocks :twisted:


Not really. View this WWS report:
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=11 ... -7932&a=24

You'll see that Holy Shield accounted for 9% of my damage against Void Reaver. Consecration was 24%, SoV 23%, JoV 19%. Even with the threat modifier on Holy Shield it's still a small portion of my total threat output. I love the spell, don't get me wrong. But I believe we are less dependant on it than most people believe and reports like this seem to back that up. Granted, HS would be a higher % if I had aggro the whole time but my point here is that our threat output without HS is pretty damn good.
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Postby Lore » Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:15 pm

Lonso wrote:
Personally, I think that HS accounts for the bulk of my threat generation


OH it does. :D And it rocks :twisted:


Not really. View this WWS report:
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=11 ... -7932&a=24

You'll see that Holy Shield accounted for 9% of my damage against Void Reaver. Consecration was 24%, SoV 23%, JoV 19%. Even with the threat modifier on Holy Shield it's still a small portion of my total threat output. I love the spell, don't get me wrong. But I believe we are less dependant on it than most people believe and reports like this seem to back that up. Granted, HS would be a higher % if I had aggro the whole time but my point here is that our threat output without HS is pretty damn good.


Void Reaver really isn't a good example since he's not targetting you the entire time.

Holy Shield winds up being a huge amount of threat when something's actually hitting you.
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Postby Lonso » Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:17 pm

Lore wrote:I find it hard to keep a solid cycle going. Most commonly (after the pull is done and I'm just focusing on tanking) I end up doing something like this:

0.0: Holy Shield
1.5: Consecration
3.0: Judge->SoR
Wait for HS cooldown

The thing is, with Holy Shield on a 10 second cooldown and Consecration/Judgement on 8, there's still a gap. With Judgement it's not a big deal, I just occasionally have to take a swing or two without a seal up. But Consecration usually comes up at the same time as Holy Shield (or slightly before, depending on latency). Sometimes I'll try to wait til Holy Shield has around 2 seconds left before Consecrating again, but I'm not sure that's any more effective than just having those 2 seconds of no Consecrate each time, especially since after 5 or so Consecrates I'm right back where I started.


Don't forget those Oh Shit moments where you go for a pot/healthstone/trinket/whatever. I get into a good groove sometimes but doubt I've ever maintained a perfect cycle for the duration of a boss fight.
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Postby Lonso » Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:24 pm

Lore wrote:
Lonso wrote:
Personally, I think that HS accounts for the bulk of my threat generation


OH it does. :D And it rocks :twisted:


Not really. View this WWS report:
http://www.lossendil.com/wws/?report=11 ... -7932&a=24

You'll see that Holy Shield accounted for 9% of my damage against Void Reaver. Consecration was 24%, SoV 23%, JoV 19%. Even with the threat modifier on Holy Shield it's still a small portion of my total threat output. I love the spell, don't get me wrong. But I believe we are less dependant on it than most people believe and reports like this seem to back that up. Granted, HS would be a higher % if I had aggro the whole time but my point here is that our threat output without HS is pretty damn good.


Void Reaver really isn't a good example since he's not targetting you the entire time.

Holy Shield winds up being a huge amount of threat when something's actually hitting you.


Unfortunately the WWS I had of me tanking Prince (which would play very well to HS's advantage) has expired. I had VR for more than 50% of the fight. As a generous guess we could say that HS would have accounted for 18% of my damage if I had him for the whole fight. With the increased threat on it, that would probably bring it up equal to Consecration. Again, I'm not trying to minimize the value of HS. I just believe our reliance on it in a single target situation isn't as drastic as it is commonly perceived to be.
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