What's your cycle?

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, theckhd

Postby Lonso » Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:28 pm

Alixander wrote:While you are correct in saying that we can generate a lot of threat from other sources, things that need to be considered is that the percentages of total threat generated via Consecration, SoV, and JoV were much inflated due to the lack of threat generated by Holy Shield, from the shifting nature of Void Reaver's attacks.


I don't disagree and as I stated in my reply to Lore after that one, estimating for the time I didn't have aggro and the modifier on HS threat should bring it up to around where Consecration was in terms of threat generated.

Also, while Consecration is a fun ability, it's really mana-hungry, and I find that unless I'm staying at full mana using every other ability I have, I'm better off not using it.


I haven't had any mana problems on this fight, even when I'm not the one with aggro. For this fight I dress for spell damage and mana while staying uncrushable and using the Kara trinket for arcane resist. Most of the time healing keeps my mana topped off. When I lose aggro I have a full mana pool to get it back with and I pot when I get below 50% if I don't have aggro back. I have had to slow down on Consecration while in the OT position a couple of times.

Something else to remember about threat generation is that Holy Shield has an additional modifier on top of the bonus we get from Righteous Fury, which helps push it up even higher. Just a reminder on that one since sometimes I forget that.


I accounted for this in my second reply as well.

Much like Void Reaver, Curator is also not a good fight to gauge Holy Shield's value. The reason why is during the Evocation periods he takes a large damage jump from incoming damage, but is not attacking. As a result Consecration, Melee, various Seals & Judgements, and other attacks that are not reactionary will generate an inflated percent skewing the numbers.


Again, I agree. How many more fights do you want to exclude from the discussion before we're left with Prince, Prince and nothing but Prince? Tank VR and he alternates tanks. Tank Hydross and you don't block anything and he alternates tanks. Tank Curator and he evocates. Tank the warlock in the Maulgar fight and he fears you off and alternates tanks. Off tank Gruul and Holy Shield, again, serves less than its potential. Should we only be looking at the fights that specifically make the most of Holy Shield before we judge its merits? Perhaps we should ask Blizz to stop designing encounters that aren't optimized for Holy Shield.
Image
Lonso
 
Posts: 54
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2007 11:58 am

Postby Lore » Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:32 pm

Blaen99 wrote:
Lore wrote:Er, what?

Pretty sure 1.5 second global cooldown has been common public knowledge for a long time now. Especially since the patch where they reduced Rogue GCD to 1 second and left everyone else's at 1.5.


I believe that was a weapon swap change.

Additionally, several items have been posted from the Blue side - including GMs - stating the GCD was 1 second.

If there's info you have that I don't, please let me know. I "fell off the side of the truck" so to speak for a good 4 months or so about a month before the ExPack came out, so if new research came out in that time, I'm unaware of it.

(Edit) Which goes back to ye olde 'How the fuck does GCD get empirically tested?' question, on that note.


You're right, it was a weapon swap change, but they just added swapping weapons to the existing global cooldown mechanism.

It's pretty easy to test the length of the global cooldown. There's many mods (such as Quartz) that actually time it, and the way they do so is by watching a non-interruptible, non-cooldown ability (such as tracking abilities, in our case Sense Undead) and displaying the cooldown left on that ability whenever a spell is cast. You'll notice it's 1.5 seconds on everyone but a rogue or a catform druid.
User avatar
Lore
Global Mod
 
Posts: 7757
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 11:52 am

Postby Blaen99 » Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:34 pm

Lore wrote:
Blaen99 wrote:
Lore wrote:Er, what?

Pretty sure 1.5 second global cooldown has been common public knowledge for a long time now. Especially since the patch where they reduced Rogue GCD to 1 second and left everyone else's at 1.5.


I believe that was a weapon swap change.

Additionally, several items have been posted from the Blue side - including GMs - stating the GCD was 1 second.

If there's info you have that I don't, please let me know. I "fell off the side of the truck" so to speak for a good 4 months or so about a month before the ExPack came out, so if new research came out in that time, I'm unaware of it.

(Edit) Which goes back to ye olde 'How the fuck does GCD get empirically tested?' question, on that note.


You're right, it was a weapon swap change, but they just added swapping weapons to the existing global cooldown mechanism.

It's pretty easy to test the length of the global cooldown. There's many mods (such as Quartz) that actually time it, and the way they do so is by watching a non-interruptible, non-cooldown ability (such as tracking abilities, in our case Sense Undead) and displaying the cooldown left on that ability whenever a spell is cast. You'll notice it's 1.5 seconds on everyone but a rogue or a catform druid.


This is interesting. I'll have to check it out myself later, but it proves something I was swearing for since about patch ~1.7 or 1.8 on my war.
Image
User avatar
Blaen99
 
Posts: 383
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2007 2:14 pm

Postby Lore » Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:36 pm

I didn't even realize there was any debate on it >.>

http://www.wowwiki.com/Cooldown
User avatar
Lore
Global Mod
 
Posts: 7757
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 11:52 am

Postby Blaen99 » Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:37 pm

Lore wrote:I didn't even realize there was any debate on it >.>

http://www.wowwiki.com/Cooldown


An enormous debate erupted between me, George, Aedak, etc. on the warrior forums on the subject.

George/Aedak took the 1 second side, I took the 1.5 second side. Their side even produced SS's of a GM stating the GCD was 1 second.

OFC, this happened during the ~1.8-1.9 days.
Image
User avatar
Blaen99
 
Posts: 383
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2007 2:14 pm

Postby Lore » Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:41 pm

I think I remember that debate actually. Screenshots of a GM saying something mean basically nothing, I'm fairly positive everyone by this point knows that GM's don't have any more information on game mechanics available to them than we do, and often know even less. Anyone remember the "Can you help me find my friend Magmadar" thread? ;)

Aedak ended up raiding on Eredar for a while, he was... an interesting person. Much like Edgewalker (a born and raised Eredar forum troll who from the sounds of things you may recognize the name) he was somewhat full of himself, convinced that every opinion he held was fact and unwilling to pursue other ideas.
User avatar
Lore
Global Mod
 
Posts: 7757
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 11:52 am

Postby Blaen99 » Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:55 pm

Lore wrote:I think I remember that debate actually. Screenshots of a GM saying something mean basically nothing, I'm fairly positive everyone by this point knows that GM's don't have any more information on game mechanics available to them than we do, and often know even less. Anyone remember the "Can you help me find my friend Magmadar" thread? ;)

Aedak ended up raiding on Eredar for a while, he was... an interesting person. Much like Edgewalker (a born and raised Eredar forum troll who from the sounds of things you may recognize the name) he was somewhat full of himself, convinced that every opinion he held was fact and unwilling to pursue other ideas.


Heh.

Aedak seemed to really hate my guts, ;).

He wasn't used to having someone hand him his ass in debate.
Image
User avatar
Blaen99
 
Posts: 383
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2007 2:14 pm

Postby Alixander » Tue Aug 21, 2007 4:18 pm

Lonso wrote:I haven't had any mana problems on this fight, even when I'm not the one with aggro. For this fight I dress for spell damage and mana while staying uncrushable and using the Kara trinket for arcane resist. Most of the time healing keeps my mana topped off. When I lose aggro I have a full mana pool to get it back with and I pot when I get below 50% if I don't have aggro back. I have had to slow down on Consecration while in the OT position a couple of times.
And, at least in my opinion, Void Reaver calls for Paladins to wear a somewhat unique set of gear, (emphasizing spell damage and mana (regen?)). This again leads to damage and mana being different than most fights. But maybe I'm just reading too much into the change.

Lonso wrote:Again, I agree. How many more fights do you want to exclude from the discussion before we're left with Prince, Prince and nothing but Prince? Tank VR and he alternates tanks. Tank Hydross and you don't block anything and he alternates tanks. Tank Curator and he evocates. Tank the warlock in the Maulgar fight and he fears you off and alternates tanks. Off tank Gruul and Holy Shield, again, serves less than its potential. Should we only be looking at the fights that specifically make the most of Holy Shield before we judge its merits? Perhaps we should ask Blizz to stop designing encounters that aren't optimized for Holy Shield.
Actually for what I really want, even the Prince is wrong because he attacks too quickly in phase 2. What I'd really want are hard numbers on a (comparatively) simple tank and spank boss with a moderate attack speed.

That's why I mentioned Attumen once he mounts up. With a boss of that nature, we would get a good average idea of the amount of threat Holy Shield would put out in comparison to other abilities. Not saying your theoretical numbers that you mentioned earlier are wrong, but I like to see the results of those theories.

EDIT: You're... your... whatever! Stupid english.
Alixander
 
Posts: 543
Joined: Tue May 08, 2007 11:51 am
Location: Berkeley, CA

Postby honorshammer » Wed Aug 22, 2007 7:51 am

Alixander wrote: I would imagine that a good fight to judge HS's value on would be Attumen, after he mounts up. Pretty much any fight that is straight tank and spank, with no tricks would be a good one to judge it by, but those are rare these days.


We did the 1st half of Kara last night (Huntsman, Moroes, Crone, Curator, Maiden)

On Huntsman, Holy Shield was my #1 dmg, accounting for 23% of my total damage.

For Moroes, Holy Shield was #1 again, accounting for 21% of my dmg.

For Crone, I was on Tinman. Holy Shield was #3 and 17% of my damage behind Consencrate and Melee (avg hit 85 lol).

On Curator, Holy Shield was #5 behind JoV, SoV, Consecrate and Melee.

On a totally unrelated note. I am missing with melee between 20-25% of the time.
User avatar
honorshammer
Moderator
 
Posts: 2148
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Charleston, SC

Postby Warrender » Wed Aug 22, 2007 7:54 am

Honorshammer wrote:On a totally unrelated note. I am missing with melee between 20-25% of the time.


I don't think that's totally unrelated.
Image
User avatar
Warrender
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1257
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:35 am

Postby honorshammer » Wed Aug 22, 2007 8:09 am

Warrender wrote:
Honorshammer wrote:On a totally unrelated note. I am missing with melee between 20-25% of the time.


I don't think that's totally unrelated.


It's really got me thinking about spec'ing into Precision
User avatar
honorshammer
Moderator
 
Posts: 2148
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 9:35 am
Location: Charleston, SC

Postby Nerissa » Wed Aug 22, 2007 9:33 am

Seal
Pull
HS
Judge
Reseal



And then the cycle devolves from there. I just prioritise, HS is most important (never wait to put it back up), then it's Consecrate, Exorcism if target is demon or undead, Judge, seal, etc. Due to the mismatched cooldowns the cycle often flips around in order a lot. (Even more with Exorcism thrown into the mix)
Nerissa
 
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2007 5:27 am

Postby Alixander » Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:08 am

Honorshammer wrote:It's really got me thinking about spec'ing into Precision
I'm 3/3 Precision and 5/5 Weapon Expertise! (b^.^)b
Alixander
 
Posts: 543
Joined: Tue May 08, 2007 11:51 am
Location: Berkeley, CA

Postby Blaen99 » Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:31 am

Alixander wrote:
Honorshammer wrote:It's really got me thinking about spec'ing into Precision
I'm 3/3 Precision and 5/5 Weapon Expertise! (b^.^)b


I'm so close to dropping imp. SoR and getting WE/Shield Spec/Guardian's Favor
Image
User avatar
Blaen99
 
Posts: 383
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2007 2:14 pm

Postby Lonso » Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:35 am

Alixander wrote:
Honorshammer wrote:It's really got me thinking about spec'ing into Precision
I'm 3/3 Precision and 5/5 Weapon Expertise! (b^.^)b


I had that spec. I found that (as a human with +5 weapons from racial) the 5/5 weapon expertise had no discernable affect on my miss % versus Void Reaver. It was one fight with 5/5 WE and 3/3 Precision versus one fight with just 3/3 Precision. A bigger data sample would have been better. I don't remember the exact numbers but I do remember that I was parried 8% both times. I took all 5 points out of WE and stuck 3 in Imp JotC. The other 2 are currently sitting in Imp Devo Aura until I decide where I want them. If you play a human, you may want to do some testing to see what you're getting for those 5 points.
Image
Lonso
 
Posts: 54
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2007 11:58 am

Previous

Return to Advanced Theorycraft and Calculations

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 1 guest

cron

Who is online

In total there are 2 users online :: 1 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 1 guest