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UPDATE: Your CAPtains: Crit, Block Hit and Expertise

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, theckhd

Re: Your CAPtains: Crit, Block Hit and Expertise

Postby Darus » Fri Feb 13, 2009 5:03 am

ahpy wrote:
Honorshammer wrote:Hit Cap

At level 70, to be Hit Capped so you wouldn't miss, you needed 141 Hit Rating, further reduced to 95 by the talent Precision. Well Precision went bye bye. At level 80, you need 295 Hit Rating to be Hit Capped.


Testing at 80 with no hit gear shows that you need nothing like 295 hit rating to be capped (for melee). Please consider changing this info. 5% is needed for melee and 13% for spells (based on testing on boss dummy with about 4000 swings).


Thats not true, the hitcap should idd be 8% and not 9% but spellhit is 13% IF you have a draenei and a shadowpriest/moonkin putting up the buff on your target. The 5% hitcap is for pvp not pve, since the initial chance to get missed as we all know is 5%.

Also it says in the post soft-Exp cap is 24, im 100% positive it is not. Should still be at 26. Been getting dodges while testing on my shaman using those 24.
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Re: Your CAPtains: Crit, Block Hit and Expertise

Postby discerpo » Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:24 am

Honorshammer wrote:Dwarves get 5 Expertise with Maces. So far there are no high end tanking maces. =(


INEVITABLE DEFEAT best Death Knight tanking weap in game is a mace...

now i know if you were focusing on becoming a tank DK you would be either a N Elf or a tauren but meh...

besides trolls are cooler anyway
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Re: Your CAPtains: Crit, Block Hit and Expertise

Postby Apollya » Sun May 17, 2009 9:50 am

Some Awesome info here Honorshammer.

I currently hold the sticky on the Blizz EU forums for Protection paladins and was wondering If I can add this Cap information to the new and improved Version of the sticky.

Obviously Credits will be given to you at the bottom of the post. I'll also keep the majority of the content as it is, however I may change wording slightly to clarify / simply parts if / where needed.

Also While I think about it I'd like a bit more info on the Expertise Cap. My understanding was that you need 6.5% reduced chance to be blocked / Parried at "Parry range" (Parry Range is a term that was used to describe attacking a boss from behind in melee range). Now as I understand it the boss only has a 6.5% chance to parry / dodge if attacked from behind but this was a lot higher if attacking from the front, which as a tank you often so (unless OTing). So I understood that as tanks we needed way more than the 24 Parry that you've detailled.

Can anyone comment on this and give some more info. I may well be wrong but would be good to know either way.
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Re: Your CAPtains: Crit, Block Hit and Expertise

Postby sublimated » Mon Jun 22, 2009 4:59 pm

Apollya wrote:Also While I think about it I'd like a bit more info on the Expertise Cap. My understanding was that you need 6.5% reduced chance to be blocked / Parried at "Parry range" (Parry Range is a term that was used to describe attacking a boss from behind in melee range). Now as I understand it the boss only has a 6.5% chance to parry / dodge if attacked from behind but this was a lot higher if attacking from the front, which as a tank you often so (unless OTing). So I understood that as tanks we needed way more than the 24 Parry that you've detailled.


Boss (or anything) has a 0% chance to parry when attacked from behind. Simply cannot parry an attack from behind (think of how that would even work in a real life scenario)
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Re: Your CAPtains: Crit, Block Hit and Expertise

Postby Conaan! » Mon Jun 22, 2009 10:07 pm

Apollya wrote:Also While I think about it I'd like a bit more info on the Expertise Cap. My understanding was that you need 6.5% reduced chance to be blocked / Parried at "Parry range" (Parry Range is a term that was used to describe attacking a boss from behind in melee range). Now as I understand it the boss only has a 6.5% chance to parry / dodge if attacked from behind but this was a lot higher if attacking from the front, which as a tank you often so (unless OTing). So I understood that as tanks we needed way more than the 24 Parry that you've detailled.

Can anyone comment on this and give some more info. I may well be wrong but would be good to know either way.


26 expertise is the dodge cap, it completely removes the chance for the boss to dodge your attacks, but the boss still has a parry chance, and any expertise after that starts reducing the chance for the boss to parry your attack

mobs can not parry attacks made from behind, but can dodge them
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Re: Your CAPtains: Crit, Block Hit and Expertise

Postby Playdoh » Tue Jun 23, 2009 5:55 am

Found what i was looking for.

Again thanks goes to theckhd. http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=23536

At 0 expertise, the boss has a 6.5% chance of dodging you, and a 14% chance to parry you.
Each point of expertise reduces the chance the boss will dodge you by 0.25% as well as the chance he'll parry you by 0.25%.

It takes 26 expertise to reduce the dodge chance to 0% (and the parry chance to 7.5%).
It takes 56 expertise to reduce the parry chance to 0%.

Each point of expertise after 26 is half as effective as it was below 26, because the boss already has a 0% chance to dodge. Thus, expertise gets weaker above the dodge soft cap. It's entirely useless above the parry cap of 56, but this is rarely achieved in practice anyway.

Since Bosses cannot be parried if you attack from behind there is absolutely no reason to get above 26 expertise as a physical dps, and the benefits from going above 26 expertise as a tank are significantly diminished.
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Re: Your CAPtains: Crit, Block Hit and Expertise

Postby Pizbit » Wed Jul 08, 2009 9:45 am

Could you change 102.5% to 102.4%.
Include Hand of Reckoning, you mention we only have RD.
Say what percentage the hit cap is, not just rating rating :D

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Re: Your CAPtains: Crit, Block Hit and Expertise

Postby Doxa » Fri Aug 28, 2009 1:13 pm

Pizbit wrote:Could you change 102.5% to 102.4%.
Include Hand of Reckoning, you mention we only have RD.
Say what percentage the hit cap is, not just rating rating :D

<3


Mention of the +1% hit racial may also be beneficial. If possible, I usually rearrange groups accordingly. Why gear for what you can almost always get for free?
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Meanwhile, pulling DPS from fire with life-grip on Enlight and throwing lightning on Pneuma.
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Re: Your CAPtains: Crit, Block Hit and Expertise

Postby Horanur » Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:23 am

Just got done reading Theck's thread on expertise ---> Avoidence. Very cool stuff considering the amount on the new ToC gear.

How low are people going nowadays as far hit rating?
I am facing massive loss of hit rating in the gear selection..

Sorry i can't do links from work!
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Re: Your CAPtains: Crit, Block Hit and Expertise

Postby kril » Tue Sep 08, 2009 4:53 am

I agree with the whole hit thing. Many tanks don't think too much about hit rating, because of the chance to miss with your taunts and righteous defense. I noticed with all the new content gear, there is a bunch of expertise, and I was able to reach the expertise soft cap without the Glyph of Seal of Vengence. If you have a free glyph spot, I would suggest the Glyph of Righteous Defense. With the glyph, you have an 8% chance to hit with those spell. I don't mean to say to totally forget about hit, but with that, it makes it one less stat to really have to worry about.

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Re: UPDATE: Your CAPtains: Crit, Block Hit and Expertise

Postby honorshammer » Wed Oct 07, 2009 12:16 pm

Just wanted to let you guys know I updated the OP. I'd appreciate if you'd look it over and make sure it's as accurate as can be.
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Re: UPDATE: Your CAPtains: Crit, Block Hit and Expertise

Postby jere » Wed Oct 07, 2009 12:28 pm

The first part of your hit section could be reworded. When you reference the 13%, it reads like you need 13% spell hit instead of 17%. I am pretty sure you meant 13% melee, but even that is wrong. I am pretty sure you need 13.6% melee (17% spell) hit to cap taunt.
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Re: UPDATE: Your CAPtains: Crit, Block Hit and Expertise

Postby honorshammer » Wed Oct 07, 2009 12:39 pm

jere wrote:The first part of your hit section could be reworded. When you reference the 13%, it reads like you need 13% spell hit instead of 17%. I am pretty sure you meant 13% melee, but even that is wrong. I am pretty sure you need 13.6% melee (17% spell) hit to cap taunt.


You need a Hit Rating of 263 (8.02%) to never miss a shot against a Level 83 boss (or skull mob) with a special attack or single-wield auto-attack.
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Re: UPDATE: Your CAPtains: Crit, Block Hit and Expertise

Postby jere » Wed Oct 07, 2009 12:41 pm

Right, but taunt is a spell. In your hit section you said you need 13% hit not to miss with taunt (and it reads as if the reference is to spell hit).

17% spell hit has the same rating as 13.6% melee hit, so either way the 13% is off. It isn't a big deal either way, but was just pointing it out.

EDIT:
This section:
Hit is what is checked to see if your Taunt resists. While your melee swings need 8% hit to connect, taunts are checked against spell hit, and require 13%. There is basically no reasonable set of gear that will get you to 13%, sorry.

It reads like you need 13% spell hit to cap taunt. It should either say 17% spell hit or 13.6% melee hit (17% spell hit) for clarification.
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Re: UPDATE: Your CAPtains: Crit, Block Hit and Expertise

Postby honorshammer » Wed Oct 07, 2009 12:44 pm

jere wrote:Right, but taunt is a spell. In your hit section you said you need 13% hit not to miss with taunt (and it reads as if the reference is to spell hit).

17% spell hit has the same rating as 13.6% melee hit, so either way the 13% is off. It isn't a big deal either way, but was just pointing it out.

EDIT:
This section:
Hit is what is checked to see if your Taunt resists. While your melee swings need 8% hit to connect, taunts are checked against spell hit, and require 13%. There is basically no reasonable set of gear that will get you to 13%, sorry.

It reads like you need 13% spell hit to cap taunt. It should either say 17% spell hit or 13% melee hit (17% spell hit) for clarification.


I changed it to say 17% because I was confusing even myself.
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