The Value of Block

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Postby Segol » Mon Aug 13, 2007 8:06 am

Oh seems the views around here where most posters actually are out there tanking is alot more positive to blockvalue than the other paladins Ive talked to on blizzard forums and ingame, Nice :)

Also means that we more or less agree, hehe.

So I think we agree that block is superior for AoE, But stamina is better for surviving bursts, But how does block value mesure up vs avoidance?

What would be really interresting is to calculate how much a boss have to hit for after armor for 1% avoidance to be better than equal amounts of points in block value, Im not really sure where to start though and dont got enough time right now to do the math either.

Whats your experience and thoughs of using blockvalue as a method to migitate long term damage?
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Postby Baelor » Mon Aug 13, 2007 8:13 am

Segol wrote:Oh seems the views around here where most posters actually are out there tanking is alot more positive to blockvalue than the other paladins Ive talked to on blizzard forums and ingame, Nice :)

Also means that we more or less agree, hehe.

So I think we agree that block is superior for AoE, But stamina is better for surviving bursts, But how does block value mesure up vs avoidance?

What would be really interresting is to calculate how much a boss have to hit for after armor for 1% avoidance to be better than equal amounts of points in block value, Im not really sure where to start though and dont got enough time right now to do the math either.

Whats your experience and thoughs of using blockvalue as a method to migitate long term damage?

Lore's post says it all, really.
Short version: More is better, and more valuable when the incoming damage is in several smaller hits than in large chunks.
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Postby Vanifae » Mon Aug 13, 2007 8:30 am

Segol wrote:Oh seems the views around here where most posters actually are out there tanking is alot more positive to blockvalue than the other paladins Ive talked to on blizzard forums and ingame, Nice :)

Blizzard forums are pretty terrible anyway.
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Postby Joanadark » Mon Aug 13, 2007 11:47 am

It's a lot harder to fit spelldamage into your mitigation gear than it is to fit block value, though tier 5 tends to do both on most pieces.

The key to block value is that, although it doesn't scale to each hit like armor does, adding more block value scales a heck of a lot faster than armor does. Adding 30 block value to your set gives you another 0.5% damage reduction against a standard 6k unblocked hit. That's just a little under half as much damage reduction that I currently get from Devotion Aura, with only about a quarter of the item value.

Also unlike armor, block value has no diminishing returns. That essentially means it gives an exponential increase to your "time til death"; one point of block value will increase your time til death by a higher and higher amount as you add more block value. This is especially apparent in AOE tanking when you stack enough block value to simply stop taking damage entirely.

There's also a Tankadin-specific benefit to having a high block value - when you're in Ardent Defender range, your incoming hits are cut by 35%, which basically increases the effectiveness of your block value by 35%. This happens a lot for me in Hyjal, where I'll have several ghouls hitting me for around 1000 after a block, healers are occupied with someone else, I drop under 30% hit points and the 1000 hits become 10 or 20.



You covered pretty much all the points I was going to bring up.

I even have a forum pre-formated block value defense that i just copy paste which I used for a while.
would throw it up everytime I saw someone go "Its useless. What good is blocking for 400 if you get hit for 8000?"

With moderate Block Value you can reach almost Druid-level damage mitigation for far less item-budget than armor would require.

The effects are cumulative.
Adding 10 block value may not seem like much. But then, adding 1% dodge doesnt seem to make much difference either.



One thing you forgot.
The multiplicative benefit from Shield Spec.
Block Value has a 3 times more generous multiplier than Armor gets, 30% as opposed to 10%. That means, it DOES scale. It scales even better than AC, but exponentially. People just don't notice it in the early stages when thier BV is low.

Shield Spec is worth every single one of it's 8 points.
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Postby Kvaern » Mon Aug 13, 2007 11:25 pm

Lore wrote:It's a lot harder to fit spelldamage into your mitigation gear than it is to fit block value, though tier 5 tends to do both on most pieces.

The key to block value is that, although it doesn't scale to each hit like armor does, adding more block value scales a heck of a lot faster than armor does. Adding 30 block value to your set gives you another 0.5% damage reduction against a standard 6k unblocked hit. That's just a little under half as much damage reduction that I currently get from Devotion Aura, with only about a quarter of the item value.

Also unlike armor, block value has no diminishing returns. That essentially means it gives an exponential increase to your "time til death"; one point of block value will increase your time til death by a higher and higher amount as you add more block value. This is especially apparent in AOE tanking when you stack enough block value to simply stop taking damage entirely.

There's also a Tankadin-specific benefit to having a high block value - when you're in Ardent Defender range, your incoming hits are cut by 35%, which basically increases the effectiveness of your block value by 35%. This happens a lot for me in Hyjal, where I'll have several ghouls hitting me for around 1000 after a block, healers are occupied with someone else, I drop under 30% hit points and the 1000 hits become 10 or 20.


I'm not saying block value is bad, just that so far in SSC/TK I've seen no good reason to stack it over other stats.
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Postby Kvaern » Mon Aug 13, 2007 11:28 pm

Baelor wrote:
Segol wrote:Oh seems the views around here where most posters actually are out there tanking is alot more positive to blockvalue than the other paladins Ive talked to on blizzard forums and ingame, Nice :)

Also means that we more or less agree, hehe.

So I think we agree that block is superior for AoE, But stamina is better for surviving bursts, But how does block value mesure up vs avoidance?

What would be really interresting is to calculate how much a boss have to hit for after armor for 1% avoidance to be better than equal amounts of points in block value, Im not really sure where to start though and dont got enough time right now to do the math either.

Whats your experience and thoughs of using blockvalue as a method to migitate long term damage?

Lore's post says it all, really.
Short version: More is better, and more valuable when the incoming damage is in several smaller hits than in large chunks.


More isn't necessarily better. Get too much of it and you will eventually mana starve yourself.
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Postby Lore » Tue Aug 14, 2007 6:51 am

Kvaern wrote:More isn't necessarily better. Get too much of it and you will eventually mana starve yourself.


Not on anything that won't die before you run out of mana.

Taking less damage is kind of the point of tanking. Taking less damage by having enormous amounts of block (and likely smaller amounts of dodge and parry as a result) caters much more to the Paladin tank style, as you'll be getting more Holy Shield threat. Mana starvation is a sign that you're doing things right, in my opinion; you've built up your mitigation to the point that you "outgear" whatever it is you're tanking. If it's really rough, just swap on more threat gear, or get a shadow priest in your party.
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Postby Sharlos » Tue Aug 14, 2007 7:00 am

Lore wrote:
Kvaern wrote:More isn't necessarily better. Get too much of it and you will eventually mana starve yourself.


Not on anything that won't die before you run out of mana.

Taking less damage is kind of the point of tanking. Taking less damage by having enormous amounts of block (and likely smaller amounts of dodge and parry as a result) caters much more to the Paladin tank style, as you'll be getting more Holy Shield threat. Mana starvation is a sign that you're doing things right, in my opinion; you've built up your mitigation to the point that you "outgear" whatever it is you're tanking. If it's really rough, just swap on more threat gear, or get a shadow priest in your party.



..our take your pants off..

(on a note i had to do this in a couple of instances before, i was always oom, and the healer was getting bored)
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Postby jere » Tue Aug 14, 2007 7:43 am

Joanadark wrote:You covered pretty much all the points I was going to bring up.

I even have a forum pre-formated block value defense that i just copy paste which I used for a while.
would throw it up everytime I saw someone go "Its useless. What good is blocking for 400 if you get hit for 8000?"

With moderate Block Value you can reach almost Druid-level damage mitigation for far less item-budget than armor would require.

The effects are cumulative.
Adding 10 block value may not seem like much. But then, adding 1% dodge doesnt seem to make much difference either.



One thing you forgot.
The multiplicative benefit from Shield Spec.
Block Value has a 3 times more generous multiplier than Armor gets, 30% as opposed to 10%. That means, it DOES scale. It scales even better than AC, but exponentially. People just don't notice it in the early stages when thier BV is low.

Shield Spec is worth every single one of it's 8 points.


Pretty much QFT. I would like to make a point at one discrepancy though:

Joanadark wrote:It scales even better than AC


While this is true, it is a bit misleading. While BV has a better scaling coefficient than AC, AC also can mitigate more (or less damage) than block depending totally on how hard the enemy hits.

The harder an enemy hits, the less % of damage BV reduces (it's a static value) while the % of damage armor reduces stays the same. So while BV scales better, it is offset by the fact that it decreases in % dmg reduction the harder an enemy hits.

With that said, you are totally correct though about the importance of it, and honestly, I need more BV in my set and am working on it, I just wanted to make sure we were considering all the angles on this.
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Postby Lore » Tue Aug 14, 2007 8:37 am

jere wrote:The harder an enemy hits, the less % of damage BV reduces (it's a static value) while the % of damage armor reduces stays the same. So while BV scales better, it is offset by the fact that it decreases in % dmg reduction the harder an enemy hits.


Very correct, but somewhat easy to deal with by always assuming the boss is hitting you ridiculously hard :P
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Postby Kvaern » Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:08 pm

Lore wrote:
Kvaern wrote:More isn't necessarily better. Get too much of it and you will eventually mana starve yourself.


Not on anything that won't die before you run out of mana.

Taking less damage is kind of the point of tanking. Taking less damage by having enormous amounts of block (and likely smaller amounts of dodge and parry as a result) caters much more to the Paladin tank style, as you'll be getting more Holy Shield threat. Mana starvation is a sign that you're doing things right, in my opinion; you've built up your mitigation to the point that you "outgear" whatever it is you're tanking. If it's really rough, just swap on more threat gear, or get a shadow priest in your party.


I wrote "necessarily" for a reason but let me elaborate.

You can't get enough block when tanking hard hitters but when AoE tanking you want to make sure there's some incoming damage left to keep the mana flowing.

For istance tanking morogrim's murlocs with 800 block = quickly finding yourself in a position where you can't fulfill your role any longer.
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