Reckoning and Parries

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Postby Everlight » Fri Sep 14, 2007 6:56 pm

Icon wrote:I was half expecting someone to suggest using a weapon with as slow a swing as possible to lower the rate of boss parries.


I've already switched to an LC mace :)

Vanifae wrote:If you die to Reckoning Parry burst your healers suck.


Fair few assumptions in there, Vanifae. Care to tell me how your healers are going to save you from taking 20k damage in less than a second from Azgalor, for example?

The quality of your healers is completely irrelevant if the burst is big enough to fully kill you.
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Postby jere » Fri Sep 14, 2007 7:36 pm

Everlight wrote:
Vanifae wrote:If you die to Reckoning Parry burst your healers suck.


Fair few assumptions in there, Vanifae. Care to tell me how your healers are going to save you from taking 20k damage in less than a second from Azgalor, for example?

The quality of your healers is completely irrelevant if the burst is big enough to fully kill you.


I could be misunderstanding Vanifae, but I took his point to be that the amount of extra parries reckoning will most likely produce is so small that it isn't noticeable. It would be like refusing to take a 1.6 speed sword for tanking to avoid parries...it might be overkill honestly though the theory has some merit.
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Postby Vanifae » Fri Sep 14, 2007 8:10 pm

jere wrote:I could be misunderstanding Vanifae, but I took his point to be that the amount of extra parries reckoning will most likely produce is so small that it isn't noticeable. It would be like refusing to take a 1.6 speed sword for tanking to avoid parries...it might be overkill honestly though the theory has some merit.

Agreed it has merit, but jere hit my point on the head.
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Postby Reiyuka » Fri Sep 14, 2007 8:31 pm

Icon wrote:I was half expecting someone to suggest using a weapon with as slow a swing as possible to lower the rate of boss parries.


I do this; absolutely I do this. Start with a fast weapon, switch to your slow weapon once you're comfortable.

Slow weapons have advantages in boss fights:

* SoV procs more often and can be kept up reliably, and SoV is most advantageous when you have low (sub-300) spell damage, where SoR is better with higher than that.
* Fewer boss parries. It's hard to overstate just how much a parry can hurt.

I've long specced out of Reckoning, for reasons completely aside from this - Reckoning is "streaky", and you can't count on it when you need it. One-Handed Weapon Specialization is 5% more threat from everything, all the time. Reckoning decreases as your dodge goes up, can't be relied on, and causes a chance of a parry streak.

Reckoning is just a bad idea for a boss raid tank now. I put the five points into getting Improved Ret Aura, which at least has some rather nice threat generation and solo grinding utility. Other people might make different decisions, but I'm standing by that one. :)
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Postby Reiyuka » Fri Sep 14, 2007 8:34 pm

If you're not a human, 3/5 WE might be a better choice for three of those points, and the other two, I don't know, improved blessing of protection maybe. No shortage of places to stick those five points.

(For those who look at my spec, just ignore Vindication. You didn't see that. :P)
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Postby Pv » Sat Sep 15, 2007 10:40 am

In a situation where parries could kill you, Gavel attacks 30% less often. Thats a pretty significant advantage.

Why wouldn't you switch in a high healer stress situation?
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Postby Worldie » Sat Sep 15, 2007 3:02 pm

Everlight wrote:Fair few assumptions in there, Vanifae. Care to tell me how your healers are going to save you from taking 20k damage in less than a second from Azgalor, for example?

The quality of your healers is completely irrelevant if the burst is big enough to fully kill you.

The chance to produce 2 parries exactly in the moment where they would kill you is so small that if it happens, it may happen once in a year.

I don't have Reckoning anymore in my build as well, but just because its a proc and i hate procs. 5 more swings wont give me any advantage in threat generation, anyway. I never cared about parries and never noticed any damageburst yet on me for a parry, not even when i had Reckoning and was using SoB to tank (= double chance for parries on hits).
If parries were such a problem, what should warriors and druids do since they are actually spamming skills every GCD?
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Postby Everlight » Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:13 pm

Worldie wrote:The chance to produce 2 parries exactly in the moment where they would kill you is so small that if it happens, it may happen once in a year.


You don't need two parries at the wrong time, you only need one and a special attack. Or one and nothing else if the bosses' melee is powerful enough.

Worldie wrote:If parries were such a problem, what should warriors and druids do since they are actually spamming skills every GCD?


Hold onto their pants and pray. Previously the parry mechanic was ignored because those classes were forced to attack in spite of them, and couldn't do anything about it. However, Paladins are in the unique position of being able to actually do something about it.

Here's some logs - enjoy;

Resulted in a wipe;

12:07'12.546 High King Maulgar's Melee hits Everlight for 5317
12:07'12.625 High King Maulgar's Arcing Smash hits Everlight for 5386
12:07'12.750 Everlight's Melee parried by High King Maulgar
12:07'14.046 High King Maulgar's Melee hits Everlight for 3221 (312 blocked)


Didn't result in a wipe, but highlights the speed change (admittedly this sequence was a bit of a freak);

14:44'38.984 Hydrastorm's Melee parried by The Curator
14:44'40.187 The Curator's Melee parried by Everlight
14:44'40.312 Everlight's Melee parried by The Curator
14:44'41.375 The Curator's Melee parried by Everlight
14:44'41.968 Everlight's Melee parried by The Curator
14:44'42.593 The Curator's Melee parried by Everlight
14:44'43.234 Everlight's Melee parried by The Curator
14:44'43.828 The Curator's Melee dodged by Everlight


This resulted in a wipe at 25% (Druid tank);

13:58'23.402 Gruul the Dragonkiller's Melee hits Ursuron for 4929
13:58'23.535 Ursuron's Maul parried by Gruul the Dragonkiller
13:58'24.864 Gruul the Dragonkiller's Melee hits Ursuron for 8541 (crushing)


Thie resulted in a wipe (notice how many parries are in here);

04:50'37.140 Gruul the Dragonkiller's Melee hits Jald for 8752 (556 blocked)
04:50'38.328 Jald's Revenge parried by Gruul the Dragonkiller
04:50'38.453 Gruul the Dragonkiller's Melee misses Jald
04:50'38.453 Jald's Heroic Strike parried by Gruul the Dragonkiller
04:50'39.765 Gruul the Dragonkiller's Melee hits Jald for 7295 (556 blocked)
04:50'40.015 Jald's Heroic Strike parried by Gruul the Dragonkiller
04:50'40.843 Gruul the Dragonkiller's Melee hits Jald for 8001 (556 blocked)


Go and examine WWS logs of various attempts on big, hard-hitting bosses. You will see that parries cause spike deaths a LOT more often than you'd think. Additionally, it doesn't have to be the parry that causes the wipe. The parry can tip the balance just enough that a subsequent special attack later knocks over the tank.

Don't forget that a boss has a 15% base chance to parry you, which is a much higher chance than their chance to miss or dodge. It's similar in likelihood to being crushed, and can be just as lethal - yet people freak out about crushes, and then go and trivialize parries.
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Postby Reiyuka » Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:49 pm

So, in some situations at least, paladins are unique in that we might be better served to not autoattack at all and completely remove parries from the boss's attack table. It'd be a rare situation, but consecrate, blessing of sanctuary, holy shield, and SA aggro might just be enough to keep it.

Maulgar for instance. Once initial aggro is established, you should be able to keep a threat lead for the most part just by standing there. At least until he starts his threat dumps.
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Postby Kaelie » Sat Sep 15, 2007 5:24 pm

I was just thinking of that today, trying to imagine a boss that would be well suited to paladin tanking while totally boning warriors, and the best I could come up with was something with insane parry chance. Paladins put out a lot of threat by being hit, warriors put out none if they can't swing at something without eating a huge spike and dying.
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Postby Mithos » Sat Sep 15, 2007 6:34 pm

God I had a parry war with Gruul the other day....that was scary, about 4 parries each before it stopped ><. I dropped reckoning, mainly because I can spend my points elsewhere in an effective manner, so they aren't wasted. They parry thing DOES happen often, I have seen it happen. I am unlucky as you get (had 1% crushable once and got 5 in a row on moroes with holy shield up and no funky debuffs because I checked thoroughly....yeah) and this happens to me often, not neccessarily a wipe, but it does cause a nasty spike. I specifically remember getting 2 or 3 double parries in a row against just random mobs in instances, nothing to say it wouldn't happen on bosses, or only happen once a year, as boss parry chance is ~15%.
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Postby adese » Sun Sep 16, 2007 8:02 am

Personally, I am not yet convinced to drop Reckoning. I do see the points being made - I'm just not sure if the (relatively) low chance of it happening is worth dropping Reckoning or not.

If I do drop Reckoning...what should I get instead? I have the cookie cutter 0/49/12 spec. If I were non-human, I'd probably say to pick up Guardian's Favor and 3/5 WE, however since I am human those 3 points in WE are pretty much wasted. There is Imp SotC, however I'm not a huge fan of SotC in the first place (usually run with JoW when soloing so I don't have to drink as often), and the talent really doesn't give you all that much.

I guess I could put the final three points in Imp Concentration Aura, to make doing Arenas for the mace a bit more bearable. I am a bit reluctant to do that since that doesn't help me to tank better at all - while the talent would be useful to me personally, it isn't helpful to the raid at all to take down more bosses (unless I'm healing, but then again that doesn't really help the raid as much as my tanking does, due to my spec).

The same argument could be made for SoC, as well - could be useful while soloing if fighting one mob, but not at all useful for raid tanking.

So, if a human Paladin wants to drop Reckoning but stay close to the cookie cutter build, where would be the best place to spend those 5 extra talent points?
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Postby mconeone » Sun Sep 16, 2007 9:35 am

It looks pretty situational. If you are AoE tanking in raids, go for imp ret aura. Doing lots of arenas, get imp conc aura. Otherwise I'd go for imp JotC, and if you dont use that in raids (no idea why not) then go with imp. devo aura or divine int.
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Postby adese » Sun Sep 16, 2007 1:23 pm

mconeone wrote:It looks pretty situational. If you are AoE tanking in raids, go for imp ret aura. Doing lots of arenas, get imp conc aura. Otherwise I'd go for imp JotC, and if you dont use that in raids (no idea why not) then go with imp. devo aura or divine int.


The main reason that I don't use SotC much is if I am the only paladin in melee, then it is much better for the raid for me to put JoW or JoL up (assuming that I don't have any problems holding aggro w/o JotC). I definitely use JotC in threat-sensitive encounters (phase 1 prince, possibly VR depending on raid make up), but in general I stick to JoW/JoL.
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Postby bekk » Mon Sep 17, 2007 10:06 am

Reiyuka wrote:So, in some situations at least, paladins are unique in that we might be better served to not autoattack at all and completely remove parries from the boss's attack table. It'd be a rare situation, but consecrate, blessing of sanctuary, holy shield, and SA aggro might just be enough to keep it.

Maulgar for instance. Once initial aggro is established, you should be able to keep a threat lead for the most part just by standing there. At least until he starts his threat dumps.


I am thinking this very thing. On prince the other day we wiped several times do to slow healing, which was amplified by the fact that I kept getting parried. In a fight to about 50% I was parried 27 times, and I am spec'd with 3/3 precision and 5/5 WE. Even though SoV was a huge threat increase, I think for phase 2 I will just turn off auto-attack so I can not be parried at all.
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