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Ret pally's affect on Prot pally threat

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Postby Buttertoast » Tue Aug 07, 2007 11:05 pm

actually, we're not thinking about this from the ret pally's perspective.

wtb feral
wtb marksman
wtb battle shout slave

it seems kind of unfair to consistently gimp down a dpser's e-peen by putting him in tank group as a support monkey. plus, you have to consider that you're going to get a bunch of jackasses pointing and laughing at how "lolret" sucks on damage meters.
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Postby corc » Tue Aug 07, 2007 11:10 pm

coudlnt it also mean that we can downrank and/or not go all out ourselves?

that way we last longer and able to keep a more steady threat level.

also, if people are going all out, does mana really matter? if its a dps fight he'll bring mana pots like any other mana user.
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Postby pyrotechniq » Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:23 am

Buttertoast wrote:actually, we're not thinking about this from the ret pally's perspective.

wtb feral
wtb marksman
wtb battle shout slave

it seems kind of unfair to consistently gimp down a dpser's e-peen by putting him in tank group as a support monkey. plus, you have to consider that you're going to get a bunch of jackasses pointing and laughing at how "lolret" sucks on damage meters.


I've heard the main limitation to a good Ret pally is exceeding the tanks threat and getting one shot, that and mana. PPL are placed in different grps on different fights depending on what is needed for that fight. On a fight like VR wear the tanks are constantly getting knock backs that kill their threat then a boost to tank threat is the ticket to..guess what more dps for those unfortunate enough to lack a threat reducing ability.

Luckily I come from a very open minded guild and yes we have a ret pally who does quite well. On trash he frequently gets into the top 5 but on a mellee friendly boss he has to hold back sometimes. If threat is not an issue on a fight then by all means id like him to be in a dps grp. But just like the warlock who get stuck in the tank grp without a spell dmg totem or a shadow priest everyone does what they can to benefit the raid.
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Postby Zonzede » Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:25 am

I think it comes down to the ret pally, on fairness .
Does he reach (or closely approach) the agro ceiling anyway, even in the pally tank group? If yes, there's no imaginable reason he should go into a dps group, all he will do is hit it faster, resulting in a Soulstone agro wipe or holding back severely.
With the way I've heard raiding rets describe their aggro spikes, I think a good many can do this. If that's the case, I think with the pally tank is the place for them.
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Postby pyrotechniq » Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:44 am

Candiru wrote:no, 10% more holy damage is just under 10% more threat.

Still good though :)


yup your right...for some reason i was thinking 10% more dmg = approx 20% more agro but obviously now that i think about it it doesn't work out that way . lol
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Postby Nich » Wed Aug 08, 2007 4:10 am

corc wrote:also, if people are going all out, does mana really matter? if its a dps fight he'll bring mana pots like any other mana user.

I'd have thoughthe'd be hitting up haste potions?
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Postby Dragonzbane » Wed Aug 08, 2007 8:05 am

Buttertoast wrote:actually, we're not thinking about this from the ret pally's perspective.

wtb feral
wtb marksman
wtb battle shout slave

it seems kind of unfair to consistently gimp down a dpser's e-peen by putting him in tank group as a support monkey. plus, you have to consider that you're going to get a bunch of jackasses pointing and laughing at how "lolret" sucks on damage meters.



Again, in a DPS group they'd most likely have to hold back even more.

People have to start learning the correct way to judge Ret Paladin's contribution to a raid. Unfortunately, most people are too lazy to try and do the math.

If you are looking at the top of the meter and expecting to see your Ret Paladin there then you are wrong.

The way I see it, and I've seen numbers to back this up, if the Ret Paladin is at least within a couple % of the bottom 3 DPSers then they are well worth the spot in the raid simply from an added DPS stand point.

Now if they can do that from the tank group and raise the overall threat of the tank 5, 10, 12% then that's an added bonus that very few people seem to comprehend.


Increased Raid Damage
Increased Threat Ceiling

Those are pretty good in my book.
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Postby Nich » Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:34 am

Warrior (hp shout), Warlock (imp), Retadin (aura), Shadowpriest (mana battery), Hunter (4% extra damage = 8% or so more threat, from holy?), Enh Shaman (WF for extra JoR swings), Elem Shaman (spell pew pew totems).

Oh, and you, to tank.

Which ones are you going to take for yourself, and which ones are you going to let go into other groups for better synnergies?
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Postby honorshammer » Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:43 am

Nich wrote:Warrior (hp shout), Warlock (imp), Retadin (aura), Shadowpriest (mana battery), Hunter (4% extra damage = 8% or so more threat, from holy?), Enh Shaman (WF for extra JoR swings), Elem Shaman (spell pew pew totems).

Oh, and you, to tank.

Which ones are you going to take for yourself, and which ones are you going to let go into other groups for better synnergies?


I can only tell you what I do in my Raids. It depends whose in the raid. I get the Lock, and the Tree. I'll give up the Hunter, Shaman, and SPriest.
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Postby Nich » Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:52 am

Honorshammer wrote:
Nich wrote:Warrior (hp shout), Warlock (imp), Retadin (aura), Shadowpriest (mana battery), Hunter (4% extra damage = 8% or so more threat, from holy?), Enh Shaman (WF for extra JoR swings), Elem Shaman (spell pew pew totems).

Oh, and you, to tank.

Which ones are you going to take for yourself, and which ones are you going to let go into other groups for better synnergies?


I can only tell you what I do in my Raids. It depends whose in the raid. I get the Lock, and the Tree. I'll give up the Hunter, Shaman, and SPriest.

I usually get a lock, another pally, and at least one warrior.

Oddest one was basically me in a melee dps group - enh shaman, prot warrior, fury warrior, rogue.
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Postby lethario » Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:57 am

Nich wrote:Warrior (hp shout), Warlock (imp), Retadin (aura), Shadowpriest (mana battery), Hunter (4% extra damage = 8% or so more threat, from holy?), Enh Shaman (WF for extra JoR swings), Elem Shaman (spell pew pew totems).

Oh, and you, to tank.

Which ones are you going to take for yourself, and which ones are you going to let go into other groups for better synnergies?


Ideally: Me, Lock, Retadin, SP, Enh. Shammy

Unfortunately, our Retadin count = 0 and only Enh. Shammy is on a RP kick on another server :(
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Postby pyrotechniq » Wed Aug 08, 2007 10:17 am

Nich wrote:Warrior (hp shout), Warlock (imp), Retadin (aura), Shadowpriest (mana battery), Hunter (4% extra damage = 8% or so more threat, from holy?), Enh Shaman (WF for extra JoR swings), Elem Shaman (spell pew pew totems).

Oh, and you, to tank.

Which ones are you going to take for yourself, and which ones are you going to let go into other groups for better synnergies?


Depends on the fight.
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Postby Teah » Wed Aug 08, 2007 11:03 am

I would say not only depends on the fight but what your role is that battle as well. Usually I get a warlock as an off-tank, and either a warrior or hunter. But I don't really have much say in it. =x
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Re: Ret pally's affect on Prot pally threat

Postby Sloath » Wed Aug 08, 2007 11:20 am

pyrotechniq wrote:I love em in my party..=p my agro goes thru the roof.

EDITED for those who thought i was talking about ret pally's and not the benefit of having a ret pally with me a PROT pally in my grp

Just commenting on how much a ret pally scales a PROT pally's agro..its pretty amazing and useful on fights like VR

so next time I'll say "Ret Pally's, Just how much do they increase our TPS?" Sry didn't think my original post would be construed as a post about ret palladins but how they affect PROT pally tanking agro.


Thanks for the Edit Pyro, and my appologies for the bluntness of my initial post. I've just come to expect posts of a little more substance in this section of the forums, not one liners. In my original post, I should have made it more clear, the topic of this thread was not the issue, more the substance (or lack thereof) seemed to lend itself more to the General Discussion area of our fourms.
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Postby corc » Wed Aug 08, 2007 11:23 am

Nich wrote:
corc wrote:also, if people are going all out, does mana really matter? if its a dps fight he'll bring mana pots like any other mana user.

I'd have thoughthe'd be hitting up haste potions?


sure, I guess. depends on the fight (generic responce, requires an open mind). I've got a trinket that increases haste so I use mana pots and admitedly I'm pretty new to ret (just gathering gear up until this week where I'm trying it out) so I didn't think to use haste pots.

As to your list of possible people who help the pali tank:

Warrior (hp shout): awesome for fights where you take large hits

Warlock (imp): ditto

Retadin: ~10% more threat (since it affects all holy damage and white damage from a +dam weapon is neg.)

Spriest: mana for long fights or fights that dont hurt you enough

Hunter: 4% more damage from direct attacks, so maybe around ~2-3% more threat

EnhShamy (WF): 20% to SoR--if SoR is 25% of threat, it'll add ~5%

What I would take: ME, Ret, Shamy, Spriest/Warrior, Warrior/Warlock

Also, I'm going to modify what I said before: The dps of the Ret pali does not matter, if he sucks it's up to him and not us. Members of the tank group are there to support the tank and are releaved from having to be the #1 dpser on the charts, imo.

*give me a sec the interweb spider ate part of the post -- kinda fixed, was better before :P.
Last edited by corc on Wed Aug 08, 2007 11:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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