Re-speccing out of Parry after Uncrushable

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Re-speccing out of Parry after Uncrushable

Postby Ryladia » Fri Jul 27, 2007 6:35 am

So I'm getting to the uncrushable status and after picking up my next pieces of gear plus some extra Kara drops, I should be well over it.

The thing is, I think it is going to be high enough that I'm going to loose alot of my extra block % and am thinking about re-speccing out of parry for something else.

I understand I take 0 damage on a parried attack, but wouldn't I want to block incoming attacks to increase my threat output and take a small amount of damage from blocking so that I can make sure I get healed to get mana?

Need some ideas on if this is a good idea or not, because stacking Stam/HP/Armor/Block seems like a pretty good idea.
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Postby Sereen » Fri Jul 27, 2007 6:44 am

Most players would tell you that it's a bad idea to stack block. Simply, because the amount you actually block for doesn't scale. Say a heroic/kara mob/boss beats on you for even up to maybe 4k. If you block 500 of that, that is a good percentage of damage mitigated. When you start getting beat on for 10k a hit, that 500 blocked doesn't seem so much.

I personally think that you need to find a balance between the two. As Joanadark said (possible someone else, but I remember seeing it in a post by said tankadin) if you die due to spike damage, get more block. If you die to healers going OOM, get more dodge/parry.
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Postby Ryladia » Fri Jul 27, 2007 6:50 am

Okay that makes sense. I'll have to ask how my healers are doing when I do some of the harder stuff. I was OTing Void Reaver last night and I didn't seem to be getting the heals that I needed to keep my mana up so maybe they were going OOM too fast.
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Postby Lore » Fri Jul 27, 2007 6:55 am

Sereen wrote:if you die due to spike damage, get more block. If you die to healers going OOM, get more dodge/parry.


Sort of. Any form of mitigation will do to help smooth out spike damage. More HP, more armor, and more block will all help.
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Postby Prepared » Fri Jul 27, 2007 7:55 am

Ryladia wrote:Okay that makes sense. I'll have to ask how my healers are doing when I do some of the harder stuff. I was OTing Void Reaver last night and I didn't seem to be getting the heals that I needed to keep my mana up so maybe they were going OOM too fast.


Void Reaver is a fight you should stock up on Bottled Nethergon Energy for. I go through them every single cooldown. Ideally, as a Paladin, I run in first because I usually hold aggro the easiest of the four tanks we use, and they try to keep up with me through 2-3 knockbacks. This entire time, my mana bar is pretty much maxed.

You should only need one healer for VR, though, with maybe a secondary that follows whoever the current main tank is. That's the way we do it now, with 7 healers in total (one raid healer per side, with one dedicated to chain-healing either tanks or melee after poundings).
"Judgement day's not coming soon enough."


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Defense < 490 = Healing gear or Hydross gear.
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Re: Re-speccing out of Parry after Uncrushable

Postby Baelor » Fri Jul 27, 2007 8:49 am

Ryladia wrote:So I'm getting to the uncrushable status and after picking up my next pieces of gear plus some extra Kara drops, I should be well over it.

The thing is, I think it is going to be high enough that I'm going to loose alot of my extra block % and am thinking about re-speccing out of parry for something else.

I understand I take 0 damage on a parried attack, but wouldn't I want to block incoming attacks to increase my threat output and take a small amount of damage from blocking so that I can make sure I get healed to get mana?

Need some ideas on if this is a good idea or not, because stacking Stam/HP/Armor/Block seems like a pretty good idea.

After achieving uncrushable, I would most certainly *not* spec out of Deflection. If you are a dedicated tank, and devote most/all of your energy and gear choices to tanking, you should keep your spec the same and adjust your emphasis on new gear. Find a mix of dodge/parry/block ratings that you like, and from there just stack up stamina, armor, and spell damage for more staying power and threat. Increase your block value as well. If you happen to acquire more avoidance on new gear, find ways to shed avoidance from other gear slots. For example:

If you acquire an upgrade in a ring slot that pushes you >1% over uncrushable, and are using Devilshark Cape for your cloak, sub out Devilshark for Burnoose of the Shifting Ages. Same item-level, more armor. It's a huge balancing act. Get as much spell damage, armor, and HP out of your gear as you can while keeping your avoidance/block >102% and your defense at 490 or better.

Short version: If you find yourself at uncrushable with 5/5 Deflection, take this not as an opportunity to change your spec, but to change your armor/gear focus. HP, armor, and spell damage are your friend.
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Postby Karathos » Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:33 pm

Baelor wrote:For example:

If you acquire an upgrade in a ring slot that pushes you >1% over uncrushable, and are using Devilshark Cape for your cloak, sub out Devilshark for Burnoose of the Shifting Ages. Same item-level, more armor. It's a huge balancing act. Get as much spell damage, armor, and HP out of your gear as you can while keeping your avoidance/block >102% and your defense at 490 or better.


I aggree with your general advice.

However, as a 'nit-pick' on your advice... the Burnoose and the Devilshark cape are not the same item level. The Burnoose is item level 112, and the Devilshark cape is 115.

Burnoose
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=27988

Devilshark
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=27804

The bad part about that particular swap, is that you are loosing Stamina and dodge in favor of the increase in armor value. (7 stamina to be exact, and ~1% dodge. Though you do gain Miss/Block/Parry on the deal.)

But each invidual's situation is different, if the armor is where one is lacking, then increasing armor is very important. If you're short on stamina, then the loss in stamina could be important (nearly 70 HP there.) Again, YMMV. So weigh out the difference as a balancing act. And determine what is most important to you.

I will note, that as a devil's advocate addendum ... that swapping out of +parry is not necessarily a bad thing. It has been indicated previously that parrying a boss hit can decrease the time between hits from a boss. (Which is why DPS melee should be attacking from behind.) So, if the MT is not parrying, and has replaced that form of avoidance with another (potentially non-block) it might be a useful swap. As parry is an avoidance maneuver (much like dodge) that only works when you are wielding a weapon, exchanging it for pure mitigation may be more useful. (If you look at our Tier 6 for example, there is substantial +block and +block value). That could potentially allow the user to move those points into something else (given our substantial lack of points ...)
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Postby Phaex » Fri Jul 27, 2007 4:27 pm

Sure you could specc parry away and maintain uncrush.

But whats the point ? Where will you dump those points instead ?
Imp LoH sucks, plain and simple, tried it for a few weeks, found absolutely no use for it and respecced to parry again.
LoH is a bad "oh shit" button for raiding, and improving it doesn't make it a good one either.

Baelor already pointed out what should be done after uncrush.
I fully agree to that. For example, wheres your vengeance card ? And so on.

----

Stam/Armor/Block/Blockvalue is the way to go, yes.
Theres only 3 things you have to do as a tank.
1st: Don't die to spike damage
2nd: Produce as much threat as you can
3rd: Minimize overall damage taken

Fully avoided hits suck.
Don't get me wrong, zero dodge and parry sucks too.
But stacking dodge above a solid base value won't help at all. You produce less threat for every dodged hit, your DPS has to go slower. And so on.

14k unbuffed hp -> 19k buffed
16-20 dodge/parry
300 spelldamage

Makes you a solid raid-MT for everything out there right now.
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Postby Nich » Fri Jul 27, 2007 8:29 pm

Karathos wrote:I will note, that as a devil's advocate addendum ... that swapping out of +parry is not necessarily a bad thing. It has been indicated previously that parrying a boss hit can decrease the time between hits from a boss. (Which is why DPS melee should be attacking from behind.) So, if the MT is not parrying, and has replaced that form of avoidance with another (potentially non-block) it might be a useful swap. As parry is an avoidance maneuver (much like dodge) that only works when you are wielding a weapon, exchanging it for pure mitigation may be more useful. (If you look at our Tier 6 for example, there is substantial +block and +block value). That could potentially allow the user to move those points into something else (given our substantial lack of points ...)

I think you got the parry thing arse around: if you parry, you hit the boss faster. If the boss parries you, you eat a damage spike.
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Postby bekk » Sat Jul 28, 2007 7:16 am

Nich wrote:I think you got the parry thing arse around: if you parry, you hit the boss faster. If the boss parries you, you eat a damage spike.


Yeah I noted the same thing.

If anything you would want to increase your parry and lower dodge, or if threat is a non issue, lower shield block rating.
More parry is still damage avoidance but with the bonus of the next attack being faster.
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Postby jere » Sat Jul 28, 2007 7:39 am

Nich wrote:
Karathos wrote:I will note, that as a devil's advocate addendum ... that swapping out of +parry is not necessarily a bad thing. It has been indicated previously that parrying a boss hit can decrease the time between hits from a boss. (Which is why DPS melee should be attacking from behind.) So, if the MT is not parrying, and has replaced that form of avoidance with another (potentially non-block) it might be a useful swap. As parry is an avoidance maneuver (much like dodge) that only works when you are wielding a weapon, exchanging it for pure mitigation may be more useful. (If you look at our Tier 6 for example, there is substantial +block and +block value). That could potentially allow the user to move those points into something else (given our substantial lack of points ...)

I think you got the parry thing arse around: if you parry, you hit the boss faster. If the boss parries you, you eat a damage spike.


If you hit the boss faster due to parry, he has more opportunities to parry your attacks as well. Though honestly the risk is very small.
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Postby Adin » Tue Aug 07, 2007 1:56 am

Wow... I always thought the problem was that parried attacks made the mob hit again right away, I too didn't realise it was the other way around.

I love this forum. :D

/stops being afraid of too much parry on gear
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Postby Daedricks » Tue Aug 07, 2007 10:48 am

Adin wrote:Wow... I always thought the problem was that parried attacks made the mob hit again right away, I too didn't realise it was the other way around.

I love this forum. :D

/stops being afraid of too much parry on gear


Well, like it was mentioned, don't forget that the more you attack, the more attacks will get parried. So the more you parry, the more you attack, and therefore, the more he parries and attacks you back.

Ultimately, I choose dodge over parry because I get more bang for my buck with dodge rating than parry rating. I'm certainly not going to turn down armor with a lot of +parry, but when I am looking at dodge, I'll choose dodge over parry.

Especially since the +parry gem and the +dodge gem are both red.
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Postby Igrado » Tue Aug 07, 2007 11:55 am

and never ever forget

18.9 Dodge Rating = 1% Dodge

31.5 Parry Rating = 1% Parry
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Postby Eggfoo » Tue Aug 07, 2007 12:15 pm

Igrado wrote:and never ever forget

18.9 Dodge Rating = 1% Dodge

31.5 Parry Rating = 1% Parry


That's not accurate anymore, they fixed Parry rating to be closer to 24.5 or somthing, there are new numbers out there. Dodge is still cheaper, but not by nearly as much anymore.
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