Thinking of AD as an EH bonus (math)

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Re: Thinking of AD as an EH bonus (math)

Postby Equitas » Thu Apr 23, 2009 4:15 pm

So far any boss will just stomp your face in and just ignore Ardent Defender completely. And im talking about bosses here:

Razorscale, Deconstructor, Ignis, Hodir, Thorim etc. Ardent defender officially is our worst scaling talent after reckoning right now, im actually even considering speccing out of it because its never useful except for trash, and on trash i start flaming our healers when they start sucking.

WTB will of the Necropolis. =/ The point here being though that even though the math is right concerning:
2 hits: 0%
3 hits: 11%

The issue is being usually youre being 2shotted by the strong bosses. And i really dont see our HP scaling a lot towards up. Our t825 set doesnt have enough stamina on it and because the sockets are either yellow or red it blows even more =/

Oh well whatever.
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Re: Thinking of AD as an EH bonus (math)

Postby æ » Thu Apr 23, 2009 4:19 pm

Equitas wrote:and on trash i start flaming our healers when they start sucking.


So youd spec out of AD and it would be their fault too? Huh
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Re: Thinking of AD as an EH bonus (math)

Postby æ » Thu Apr 23, 2009 4:26 pm

Rasmfrackn wrote:
æ wrote:I know this seems simple, but it almost seems like looking at some illusion where one person sees it and the other cant.

Im seeing where all the numbers are coming from, and 0.7 inverce is 1.43. But im also seeing that at 35% you have 30% more, thus being 10.5% EH? How is that wrong, and if its not, how can 15% also be correct?

For now im thinking that 10.5% is incorrect value for the EH as damage incomeing is put through a .7 modifier so it just works out differantly (and i suppose at a higher real EH). (??)


Hrm, ok.

I guess your confusion is that at 35% you don't have 30% more, you take 30% less. Hence the 43% that Majiben corrected.

How about this:

taken = incoming * reduction

reduction = 0.7, so taken = incoming * 0.7

Another way to write the equation is taken / 0.7 = incoming. So the amount you're able to "take" from a fixed "incoming" gets increased by dividing by 0.7, which is the same as multiplying by 1.43.

65% + 35% * 1.43 = 115% in the best-case, 1-damage-at-a-time case. Larger hits reduce the 35% to a smaller number as the hit that brings you into AD range skips more and more of that portion of your health. So, your EH with AD is 65% of your health, plus x% of your health, plus (35%-x%) * 1.43 of your health that actually gets increased. That x depends on the granularity of the hits.

Is that what you're asking?


Alright im starting to get it I think. Then, if we wanted to convert it to EH wouldent it be 43% of 35% health or, as you say, best case 15% EH? The other stuff about how it can be skipped over and how shields and BV effect things I can understand a bit better I just got stuck on how the basic mechanic worked, thanks!
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Re: Thinking of AD as an EH bonus (math)

Postby Candiru » Fri Apr 24, 2009 7:31 am

Its important to realise that % increases and decreases are not the same.

EG a shop increases all it's prices by 50%, then decreases them all by 50%.

Old cost: £100
High cost: £150
final cost: £75

So your price is PRICE*1.5*0.5.

Undoing a 50% increase means dividing by 1.5, or multiplying by 0.66.

Lots of people get this muddled up all the time.

RE Block,shields getting stronger with AD. I don't see how this helps in the 2 shot situation, since you are never below 35% health until you are dead :)

It does help with dots though, so on ignis if he is 2-shotting you AD might save you from a flame jets dot.
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Re: Thinking of AD as an EH bonus (math)

Postby æ » Sat Apr 25, 2009 5:44 am

Alright I started to try this in excell. Before you point out some obvious things, im just doing a basic thing here before I try and add in block and shields and all that rabble.

Bugs:
1.Need to find a method to add my remaining health under 35% to my EH where I entered AD. As you can see in the graph @ 5000 dmg taken, I would not be dead on the 4th hit! Silly me...Oh boy. More if() functiuons i guess(?) Edit: I suppose I shouldn't be subtracting current health from the full EH value health. Im not sure what I was thinking.. I probably wanted to see the raw EH only and it ended up doing this. Ill fix that later :P
2.Need to find a better method to display when (1)AD isnt on, when (2)AD is on, and when (3)i r ded.

Please point out any other basic things i fubbed up. Enjoy the colorz.

ADheroic2.png
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Re: Thinking of AD as an EH bonus (math)

Postby lythac » Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:47 am

Elsie wrote:Since AD is pointless in the 2-shot scenario, we can simply assume it takes 3 hits for a boss to kill the paladin


I have 40k hp and 2k BV, boss is hitting me for 22k after armor but before block, so he can 2 shot me.

AD kicks in at 14k health.

Boss hits for 15400 after armor but before block. After block 13400.

AD can save you even if the boss can 2 shot, its just very very unlikely. The main point to my post rather than just finding extreme examples comes from -

Majiben wrote:
Rasmfrackn wrote:"At 35-x% health, 35-x% of your health is 30% bigger.

That is inaccurate. At sub 35% health you have 42.86% more EH not 30%.


The EH increase of 42.86% would be the minimum as when taking 30% less damage your block mitigates a higher % of the hit.
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Re: Thinking of AD as an EH bonus (math)

Postby majiben » Wed Apr 29, 2009 4:07 am

Correct, more difficult to model though.
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Re: Thinking of AD as an EH bonus (math)

Postby Kelaan » Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:11 am

That is an interesting point, though -- the points seem effectively wasted since we almost never get hit softly enough (or stay in AD range long enough) to let AD actually help us. That said, what else would I spend them on? More threat? Only my hunter and 0/x/x DK come close, right now.
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Re: Thinking of AD as an EH bonus (math)

Postby Candiru » Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:12 am

Its quite obvious on loatheb where he becomes unable to hurt you once you hit 35% health :)

If you use 5/5 Divinity, Seal of Light, Judgement of Light can you outheal his dots and solo him? (maybe some resilience to lower the dot damage?)
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Re: Thinking of AD as an EH bonus (math)

Postby Elsie » Fri May 01, 2009 1:06 pm

I have 40k hp and 2k BV, boss is hitting me for 22k after armor but before block, so he can 2 shot me.

AD kicks in at 14k health.

Boss hits for 15400 after armor but before block. After block 13400.

The bold discrepency refutes your conclusion. Basically, on a boss you have to take Worst Case Scenario and base it on maximum hit or average hit. Usually we go with average hit since it's incredibly unrealistic to get two maximum damage hits.
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Re: Thinking of AD as an EH bonus (math)

Postby majiben » Fri May 01, 2009 2:00 pm

Elise I think he means when in AD range a 22k hit becomes a 15.4k hit before block can post block the hit is survivable. This wasn't entirely clear but in that one (somewhat contrived) situation it would still save him.
Last edited by majiben on Sun May 03, 2009 10:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Thinking of AD as an EH bonus (math)

Postby Khayne » Sat May 02, 2009 9:39 am

I'd say other problems in modelling AD would be that we aren't tanking in a vacuum, soloing ulduar.

There will be Sacred Shields, PW:S's, HoT's and "non-topping off HL's", which means that even if boss keeps on swinging for a 40k tank for 21k health, that tank will at some point end up in 13 900 health or something.

And then all those scalings on different absorption effects kick in, and you survive that attack that should have wiped floor with you since you were so low on health.

Or on other chance that random renew heals you up to 14 100 health and boss swipes the floor with you.

I just consider that there's way too many things factoring in AD to get anywhere near some constant EH increase.

Easiest thing to show it would be other people that will give you damage reduction cooldowns on top of AD for real shield wall effect?

i.e. Ret giving HoS in AD=-51% damage taken, makes a 20k hit survivable even if you start off at 11k health because you had AD.
Hell, if that was unexpected you might have allready hit divine prot too, now you survive 20k hits with 5k health start, without BV or absorbs.

What order do absorbs come in play though? i'd hope and presume after damage reduction cd's.
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Re: Thinking of AD as an EH bonus (math)

Postby lythac » Tue May 05, 2009 1:55 am

Elsie wrote:
I have 40k hp and 2k BV, boss is hitting me for 22k after armor but before block, so he can 2 shot me.

AD kicks in at 14k health.

Boss hits for 15400 after armor but before block. After block 13400.

The bold discrepency refutes your conclusion. Basically, on a boss you have to take Worst Case Scenario and base it on maximum hit or average hit. Usually we go with average hit since it's incredibly unrealistic to get two maximum damage hits.


Yeah, as Majiben said the lower amount is when in AD range. Both hits are for the same amount.
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Re: Thinking of AD as an EH bonus (math)

Postby Elsie » Tue May 05, 2009 5:10 am

Yeah, as Majiben said the lower amount is when in AD range. Both hits are for the same amount.

I'm aware, but you have to assume in your case the initial hit put you below 35%, which it does not. Thus, you are taking 22k+22k not 22k+15.4k. If you're arguing Big Hit -> Small hit, I covered that earlier when talking about minimum EH gain. If you're assuming a not-topped tank, then your WCS is different, your healers failed, or you can simply take the health difference and first hit damage sum as the initial damage.

I'm still of mind we can only contribute the EH found in the minimum scenario. Otherwise such EH is not reliable or otherwise available - it's akin to warrior block if you will. If the argument takes a significantly large number of hits, then there's really no point in debating the EH gains of AD since you're dealing with an insignificant scenario.
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Re: Thinking of AD as an EH bonus (math)

Postby Kelaan » Wed May 06, 2009 3:42 pm

Khayne wrote:The tank will at some point end up in 13 900 health or something. And then all those scalings on different absorption effects kick in, and you survive that attack that should have wiped floor with you since you were so low on health.
Or on other chance that random renew heals you up to 14 100 health and boss swipes the floor with you.

Preaching to the choir, but this is the core of the problem. Elsie said it really well in the Blade Warding thread: Tanks want something reliable. I'd MUCH rather have AD be a flat reduction of any part of any hit which would reduce us below X% health, even if the amount of reduction were nerfed. Two-hit death scenarios suddenly would have ~2/3 of the second hit being affected by AD, and we'd be very very happy. As it is, AD is useful in a slim margin of cases, usually only at times when we outgear content.

Now, if a boss hit us many times a second (say, an arcane-missiles like barrage of damage), so that we were subjected to a nigh-constant stream of incoming DPS, AD in its current form would be fabulous ... but I don't see that happening anytime soon. (I mention arcane missiles, as many fast melee hits would be mitigated very well by block value ... unless they were on the order of several per second.)
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