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(3.0.3.9183) WotLK TPS Weapons Spreadsheet

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, theckhd

Postby Vanifae » Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:09 pm

Tieran wrote:Baaaaah - stupid US forums I can't sign in... atleast thats what I think it is..

Can someone please reply to the poster on the forums? or give a reason as to why they will not after reading my reply.

"I am not asking for a unique itemization just pointing out that like the last poster noted our tanking mechanics are still a little schizophrenic and they seem to want us to go one way but we still favor what we had before. I am not requesting any unique itemization I would love to use SP weapons, a fast tanking weapon, or whatever they decide we should use but I would rather it be obvious then obfuscated behind layers of theory craft. "

See the issue is in bold for me..
Blah Blah we don't want unique itemization etc.. but I can bet tenner there will be items which just happen to have perfect warrior / death knight tanking stats.
And once again these perfect weapons for warrs / DKs will provide very good tps and good tanking stats, which ours will severely lack both in live.. and it looks like in BETA aswell..
And once again Paladins will find these DK / Warr weapons un-preferable in comparison to say a SP weapon which has been designed for Mages / Locks / Shadows / Eles...

Now before I go any further..:
THIS IS NOT A PLEA FOR PALADIN SPECIFIC WEAPONS - no one posting wants that I don't think..

This is a plea to fix our current talents, so that we don't find ourselves wanting that caster weapon "as was NOT intended by Blizzard with the reduction of loot tables".

If anyone has a solution to this, so HotR actually causes more tps with a fast tanking weapon, and does not get ridiculously over powered with a slow one then could they add that to the bottom ... complaining without providing an alternate solution is worthless imo and I am not familiar enough with the mechanics to think of a solution.



That was my reply, I am not sure what your issue is though.
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Postby PsiVen » Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:57 pm

Heartless ranks slightly above Muramasa.

Here's the lay of the land for HotR normalized to 2.4 speed. Still need confirmation on that figure.

Image

A 0 DPS weapon lies around the 1700 TPS mark.
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Postby Nich » Mon Sep 01, 2008 5:39 pm

Is it safe to assume that tempest of chaos will come ahead slightly ahead of hammer of judgement in all the charts/tables so far?
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Postby rozakk » Mon Sep 01, 2008 6:21 pm

hm that ordering is quite different from the OP, what has changed?

edit - nvm saw thats for spll dmg gear. where would heartless rank in the initial str gear lineup?
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Postby PsiVen » Mon Sep 01, 2008 8:08 pm

ToC is between Brutal Gavel and Hammer of Sanctification.

Rozakk, the difference is HotR normalization. With HotR normalized it doesn't matter what gear you're wearing. Well, it does for hit and stuff, but not much.
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Postby Grothnir » Mon Sep 01, 2008 8:49 pm

Question 1: Has HotR actually been normalized, then?

Question 2: If they did normalize HotR.... why? That just makes the spelldamage weapons even better. /grumble
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Postby kylone » Mon Sep 01, 2008 10:58 pm

So, the summarization of the matter is: we can use Str/Sta/DR gear, and weapons that have Sta/SP (As long as we have the Sta > SP talent)?

My response to this is: Umm.... so what? What are the concerns here? If there's another thread that explains this clearly, could you point me in that direction?

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Postby Grothnir » Tue Sep 02, 2008 5:27 am

The concern is that they didn't fix the damn problem with our weapon itemization. We're still heavily penalized for using a tanking weapon relative to a spellpower weapon, in terms of threat.

And the real kicker, IMO: Which are they going to assume we're using for balance purposes? The difference between the two is substantial.
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Postby Tieran » Tue Sep 02, 2008 5:49 am

Vanifae wrote:
Tieran wrote:Baaaaah - stupid US forums I can't sign in... atleast thats what I think it is..

Can someone please reply to the poster on the forums? or give a reason as to why they will not after reading my reply.

"I am not asking for a unique itemization just pointing out that like the last poster noted our tanking mechanics are still a little schizophrenic and they seem to want us to go one way but we still favor what we had before. I am not requesting any unique itemization I would love to use SP weapons, a fast tanking weapon, or whatever they decide we should use but I would rather it be obvious then obfuscated behind layers of theory craft. "

See the issue is in bold for me..
Blah Blah we don't want unique itemization etc.. but I can bet tenner there will be items which just happen to have perfect warrior / death knight tanking stats.
And once again these perfect weapons for warrs / DKs will provide very good tps and good tanking stats, which ours will severely lack both in live.. and it looks like in BETA aswell..
And once again Paladins will find these DK / Warr weapons un-preferable in comparison to say a SP weapon which has been designed for Mages / Locks / Shadows / Eles...

Now before I go any further..:
THIS IS NOT A PLEA FOR PALADIN SPECIFIC WEAPONS - no one posting wants that I don't think..

This is a plea to fix our current talents, so that we don't find ourselves wanting that caster weapon "as was NOT intended by Blizzard with the reduction of loot tables".

If anyone has a solution to this, so HotR actually causes more tps with a fast tanking weapon, and does not get ridiculously over powered with a slow one then could they add that to the bottom ... complaining without providing an alternate solution is worthless imo and I am not familiar enough with the mechanics to think of a solution.



That was my reply, I am not sure what your issue is though.


I have no issue with what you have said:

I have merely made two observations which anyone from an unbiased PoV could make.

Warrs will get weapons designed for them.
These weapons will suck for Paladins, aka we will end up using SP weapons.

Rather than take this as a Plea for Paladin specific weapons, we would much rather have "tank specific" weapons.. and for our current talents to be changed. I don't think until now this has been made entirely clear on the forums, and if the Devs see it as a plea for new itemization it will be ignored.

Making sense now Vani?
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Postby kylone » Tue Sep 02, 2008 8:17 am

Tank specific weapons?
Well, hrmm....
The Death Knight will be tanking with a 2-hander.
So will the Druid (I think)

That kinda means that you guys would like to see Warriors and Paladins use the same weapons for tanking, right?

I'm personally fine with Plate items being the same for tanks, with specific weapons.

IMO, anyways
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Postby Mavrix » Tue Sep 02, 2008 9:22 am

kylone wrote:Tank specific weapons?
Well, hrmm....
The Death Knight will be tanking with a 2-hander.
So will the Druid (I think)

That kinda means that you guys would like to see Warriors and Paladins use the same weapons for tanking, right?

I'm personally fine with Plate items being the same for tanks, with specific weapons.

IMO, anyways


There's been a couple of blizzard blue posts about how they would prefer to make it so that DKs DW to tank. Feral druids, unless they really change some mechanics, are going to always have Feral specific staffs to use.
Paladins, unless they fix our mechanics, should never use current warrior style tanking weapons because they simply are lacking compared to other itemization (unless you prefer not to be the best you can be /boggle).

I have no idea why you don't see that there are problems.
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well

Postby Mavrix » Tue Sep 02, 2008 9:43 am

Now I'm confused about what weapon to pick up.
The latest PsiVen chart posted is opposite the previous posted chart.
Obviously the goal is to have the best gear possibly attainable to do the job.
I do notice the table is based on 2.4 normalization and spell damage gear.
I guess more changes are to be expected anyway.
Maybe they will or maybe they won't reitemize our tier and other gear, too, and that would obviously change things a bit as well.
Is 2.4 normalization "in" in the current beta for HOTR?
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Postby rozakk » Tue Sep 02, 2008 10:18 am

ive resigned myself to waiting atleast until 3.0 hits ptr before i try to start figuring out the truth of all this.

but so far from ej and here it seems like str gear with a sd weapon will be the best combo (assuming hotr normalization is true) for threat, because AP just isnt a stat found on weapons in the quantities that sd is.

while the sta > sd talent is nice, we're gonna have a ton of stamina no matter what as it helps for survivability, but i dont think gearing sta for the sake of threat has been popular amongst the theorycrafters.
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Postby Grothnir » Tue Sep 02, 2008 10:44 am

kylone wrote:I'm personally fine with Plate items being the same for tanks, with specific weapons.

IMO, anyways

That causes a loot table problem that is potentially drastically exacerbated over Live. You have exactly prot warriors and no one else who really wants a mitigation weapon. Prot paladins and Frost DKs might take them for off-set or the DKs off-hand.

But a spelldamage mace drops..... all priest specs, 2/3 druid specs, 2/3 shaman specs, and the prot paladin all get to fight over it (with some variance in the healers.... sometimes).

A spelldamage sword drops, and warlocks, mages, and the prot paladin all get to fight over it.

A spelldamage axe drops.... Full stop. They don't make those.

So, with all of that said....

Guess who upgrades faster?

Also, if we're back to using weapons with no appreciable physical dps, we're diminishing the value of HotR (and to a lesser extent ShoR) in our rotations in favor of the old standby abilities. That's simply less fun AND representative of an itemization problem.
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Postby Chunes » Tue Sep 02, 2008 10:52 am

compound that with the fact that there will be little distinction between "spelldamage" weaps and "healing" weaps as it will all be spellpower come wrath. So unless there are glaring stat defficiencies, even the healers will be after weaps w/ spell power on them, exacerbating the issue of "wtf gear should we be going for?!" even further...
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