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(3.0.3.9183) WotLK TPS Weapons Spreadsheet

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Postby halabar » Tue Oct 21, 2008 11:35 am

Branir wrote:
halabar wrote:Any updates for the spreadsheet with some of the other lvl 70 stuff?.. (the other lvl 70 spreadsheet only has about 5 weapons on it, so it's not terribly useful anymore).

It's not the answer you're looking for, but "does it really matter?" On my mediocre geared paladin (3/4 Kara epics, badge legs, welfare epic shield and Mana Wrath) I went up from doing around 1000 tps to peaks of 2500 tps in ZA this weekend.

I think it's safe to say that threat is a non-issue at level 70, and the current weapon TPS list is fine as you really only need some level 70 weapons to show the difference.


Well, it's more of an issue of "do I grind out the honor in BGs" for the S2 weap, or is my HH sword good enough until I get a drop in ZA or get lucky in a Hyjal pug? (Note that I am still ret atm, just trying to gather a tank set for when wrath hits. Got four pieces in Kara last weekend, hope to get into ZA this weekend, and perhaps a Hyjal pug).
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Postby PsiVen » Tue Oct 21, 2008 1:34 pm

I found another error, AP from STR is only showing up as 1:1. I'll fix it when I get home tonight. The results of a simple analysis of level 80 enchants are based on the corrected version:

Code: Select all
Titansteel Guardian     3791.5
TG + 20 AGI             3799.8
TG + 25 HIT + 25 CRIT   3819.6
TG + 63 SP              3824.8
TG + 65 AP              3826.9
TG + 20 STR             3828.4
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Postby Helpunot » Tue Oct 21, 2008 11:03 pm

Mneme wrote:My threat is fine vs all of my DPS, I just find myself getting rofled in TPS by my warrior co-tank. But then, he has all of his tanking abilities already and is probably actually a tad better than myself anyway, so it doesn't bother me much. Now that I'm getting used to the new abilities, I'm finding it a lot easier to toss out Hand of Salv if I see a warlock or mage creeping up on threat. Overall my impression of the changes at 70 are that we're "good enough" and will only get better as we level.


My warrior co-partner is literally considered by our guild to be a robot, or at least thats the joke. In any case, he is using vigilance to boost his tps now and even with it, I have to on some bosses (felmyst) drop RF for a good 20 seconds to keep from pulling aggro off of him. This is most likely due to the JoL healing the raid threat effect.

On a side note, got me a Heroic Judicator's Chestguard tonight, pretty stoked about it. He got the helm last week off KJ, so I just edged him out for the chest! CHEERS!
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Postby Fafa » Wed Oct 22, 2008 1:05 am

PsiVen wrote:I found another error, AP from STR is only showing up as 1:1. I'll fix it when I get home tonight. The results of a simple analysis of level 80 enchants are based on the corrected version:

Code: Select all
Titansteel Guardian     3791.5
TG + 20 AGI             3799.8
TG + 25 HIT + 25 CRIT   3819.6
TG + 63 SP              3824.8
TG + 65 AP              3826.9
TG + 20 STR             3828.4


Massacre is going to pull ahead of all of them then from the looks of potency being so close to superior potency.
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Postby PsiVen » Wed Oct 22, 2008 1:39 am

Massacre is a 2h enchant.
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Postby Fafa » Thu Oct 23, 2008 12:42 am

ah my mistake, was going off the tooltip on wowhead.
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Postby mbflash » Thu Oct 23, 2008 11:49 am

Pummeler is higher tps than slicer for a dwarf, right?

This is what I get when I do the numbers, has anyone else done that can confirm please?

Thanks

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Postby PsiVen » Thu Oct 23, 2008 1:02 pm

Yes, actually the advantage for a dwarf with a mace should be markedly larger than 2 TPS. Make sure you have the expertise right, 5 expertise is equal to about 20 rating at 70 (which is what it would be on the weapon).
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Postby Soranthalas » Mon Oct 27, 2008 8:53 am

halabar wrote:Well, it's more of an issue of "do I grind out the honor in BGs" for the S2 weap, or is my HH sword good enough until I get a drop in ZA or get lucky in a Hyjal pug? (Note that I am still ret atm, just trying to gather a tank set for when wrath hits. Got four pieces in Kara last weekend, hope to get into ZA this weekend, and perhaps a Hyjal pug).


I wouldn't dump the amount of honor it would take for an S2. At this point the amount of threat we generate is absurd. The difference in threat between melee/tank/spell weapons of the same level is pretty minor, so I've been sticking with a tank weapon.
If you already have the HH weapon, run a few Mechs for a Sun Eater or keep hitting the Chess event in the few weeks you have left.
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Postby Stahlgeist » Thu Oct 30, 2008 8:02 am

When looking at the graphs it's easy to assume some of the stuff on the "low" end is a ton worse than the stuff on the high end, until you cogitate on the fact that the numbers on the left are truncated.

The spread on all the weapons on the graph is like 300 TPS, between 3400 and 3700. If you have any of the weapons on the graph now, it's not worth the time/expense/honor/dkp/whatever to shift a couple places to the left.

I was confused at first too. "Amg, my Cleaver of the Unforgiving sucks!... oh, wait."
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Postby Squishums » Fri Oct 31, 2008 4:20 pm

It sucks that the seals that proc off HoR scale better with a slow weapon. It would be so nice if we could just use a standard "warrior" tanking weapon without feeling like its a tradeoff.

I have an Unbreakable Will with agility on it....I was really happy with it untill I noticed I actually did more tps using an unenchanted Decapitator =/

And for people who prefer caster weaps, gavel of undearthed secrets probably pwns hammer of judgement....
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Postby PsiVen » Fri Oct 31, 2008 6:50 pm

Squishums wrote:It sucks that the seals that proc off HoR scale better with a slow weapon. It would be so nice if we could just use a standard "warrior" tanking weapon without feeling like its a tradeoff.

I have an Unbreakable Will with agility on it....I was really happy with it untill I noticed I actually did more tps using an unenchanted Decapitator =/

And for people who prefer caster weaps, gavel of undearthed secrets probably pwns hammer of judgement....


I don't know where you got this impression unless you didn't actually read anything. We use SoV almost exclusively now, so there's nothing for slow weapons to scale better on.

*coughedit* Sorry about this snarky post, what I mean to say is while you might twist SoR sometimes, you won't at 80. So it's negligible now and a nonfactor later.
Last edited by PsiVen on Sat Nov 01, 2008 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby cordelia » Sat Nov 01, 2008 2:58 pm

Psiven,

I'm slowly going over your spreadsheet, and trying to figure it out. I plan to integrate the threat calculations into my TankadinPoints system to better evaluate gear upgrades.

Reading over it, I can see some of the calculations you've made, and what assumptions they're based off of. I'll list these assumptions out, so you can confirm them. Additionally, I have certain questions, and I'll list those out, too.

Assumptions that need to be confirmed
    1) enAvoid is boss dodge and boss parry chance, combined.
    2) The SBV multiplier of 1.3 for ShoR(Cell Num!D14) is the 30% multiplier from redoubt.
    3) This implies that the base value of 1087 SBV does not have the redoubt multiplier.
    4) SoV no longer has spell-hit rate, and is 100% applied as long as the melee swing connects for damage.
    5) SoV 5-stack proc is also 100% applied, as long as the melee swing connects.
    6) HotR uses the full melee combat table to hit, including miss, dodge, parry.
    7) ShoR cannot be dodged or parried, but can be missed, so uses a partial melee combat table to hit.
    8) SoV 5-stack proc, HotR, and ShoR all use melee critical bonus: 2x, instead of spell critical bonus: 1.5x.


Questions
    1) I think the AP column (Stats!F) needs to multiply the AP from STR by 2: =$F$2+Weap!E2+(Weap!F2*$T$1)*2.
    2) What does the Modifier column under Num!F represent? It seems to be some spell-specific threat or damage modifier.
    3) Why do you multiply the SoV TPS calculation by this Modifier twice? Is that an error?
    4) Why does SoV have no base damage, and why does JoV have basedamage of 1, but it's not used in the calculation?
    5) Doesn't JoV use spell hit rates, and not melee hit rates? If so, the hit rating conversions are different, according to WotLKwiki.
    6) Why does the JoV threat calculation have a multiplier of 1.5? Is this for 5 stacks?
    7) Shouldn't JoV use spell crit modifier of 1.5x nonCritDmg?
    8) Why does IHS have an AP mod, yet it's not used in the threat calculation? Also, shouldn't IHS and HS have same base?
    9) Shouldn't TPS from SoV per-swing proc be affected by enAvoid(dodge/parry)?
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Postby PsiVen » Sat Nov 01, 2008 3:27 pm

1) Yes
2) No, that's the SotT talent
3) No, see 2
4) I assume that SoV is always 5-stacked and never falls off, the numbers do not consider the 'opening' moves where you get stacks rolling and such.
5) Yes, I assume this as I haven't seen the bonus damage resist.
6) Yes, I assume that "Deflections" are simply dodges and parries.
7) Yes
8) Yes

1) It should, I thought I fixed that in the last version. I'll take a look.
2) It's spell-specific, so that label is ambiguous.
3) Need to check on this.
4) To my knowledge, SoV has no base damage and JoV should have a base damage of 1. I'll look at fixing that if it's not being added.
5) No, Judgements should be behaving as ranged physical attacks, not spell attacks
6) Yes, that's the 5-stack multiplier
7) No
8) Since IHS doesn't exist one of those is redundant. Not sure what you about the AP, but I'll look at it
9) Yes, it should be

I need to reinstall Excel here and I'll look into these.
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Postby Squishums » Sat Nov 01, 2008 3:56 pm

PsiVen wrote:
Squishums wrote:It sucks that the seals that proc off HoR scale better with a slow weapon. It would be so nice if we could just use a standard "warrior" tanking weapon without feeling like its a tradeoff.

I have an Unbreakable Will with agility on it....I was really happy with it untill I noticed I actually did more tps using an unenchanted Decapitator =/

And for people who prefer caster weaps, gavel of undearthed secrets probably pwns hammer of judgement....


I don't know where you got this impression unless you didn't actually read anything. We use SoV almost exclusively now, so there's nothing for slow weapons to scale better on.


Ive been using righteousness aswell as vengence, but now that I think about it at 80 the rotation will be completely full so there wont be any gaps to swap seals.

So yeah, I guess youre right, its not a big deal.
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