(3.0.3.9183) WotLK TPS Weapons Spreadsheet

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Postby Dragonzbane » Thu Aug 28, 2008 1:46 pm

Dorvan wrote:For me it's the general issue that depending on both AP and SP is much more likely to lead to unintended balance issues than simply one or the other, and we've already seen that in the case of Ret Pallies for example. After seeing all the ways Blizzard's screwed up hybrid melee/spell mecanics over the past 3 years, I'm ready to jump completely on board with one framework or the other, and since AP seems to be the decision from Blizzard, the more distance we put between ourselves and SP the better imo.



I agree with Dorvan.

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Postby Vanifae » Thu Aug 28, 2008 2:13 pm

I sometimes wish Touched by the Light just gave 30% increase to Attack power :(

Although I guess that would ruin our Hybrid capabilities.
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Postby Dorvan » Thu Aug 28, 2008 2:17 pm

Vanifae wrote:I sometimes wish Touched by the Light just gave 30% increase to Attack power :(

Although I guess that would ruin our Hybrid capabilities.


For Hybrid capabilities just make it increase only our healing power (I know for example that school-specific spellpower exists, so I don't see why healing-specific spellpower wouldn't be possible).

I've been busy posting to existing threads thus far, but I plan on making a separate topic for this on the Beta boards "soon" :P
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Postby Fridmarr » Thu Aug 28, 2008 2:51 pm

Dorvan wrote:For me it's the general issue that depending on both AP and SP is much more likely to lead to unintended balance issues than simply one or the other, and we've already seen that in the case of Ret Pallies for example. After seeing all the ways Blizzard's screwed up hybrid melee/spell mecanics over the past 3 years, I'm ready to jump completely on board with one framework or the other, and since AP seems to be the decision from Blizzard, the more distance we put between ourselves and SP the better imo.


The ret pally issues weren't caused by scaling with both stats. Judgement had huge modifiers to it.

+6% from 2hand spec, +15% if vengeance was up, + 3% from Crusade, + 100% (of base) when the target was stunned, +2% from the aura, + 30% extra damage on a crit, +30% from AW, and then after all of that, Art of War doubled it. Thusly, 17K judgements.

Shaman have been using double scaling since 2.3 I believe and it seems to be working ok for them.

Now that being said, I do agree with you. We have skills that are spells and scale with spell damage and AP. We aren't expected to see any spell damage on our gear....so why the spell damage scaling, what does that get us? Why not just increase AP component, and then you don't have to glean spell damage from stamina which is pretty unintuitive.

Of course part of the issue is shared abilities across the different talent specs. Increasing AP coefficients hurts holy and increasing spell damage coefficients hurts ret. At the end of the day though, I'd rather only have to worry about one stat, and worry about blizzard's ability to keep all this mutliple scaling stuff balanced at 80 and then at end game 80.
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Postby Vanifae » Thu Aug 28, 2008 3:06 pm

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa ... sid=2000#0

Made my suggestion you might like it Dorvan.
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Postby kalbear » Thu Aug 28, 2008 3:07 pm

Heartless, btw, still shows up favorably here, and better than any of the SP weapons. Might be worth picking up in ZA if you get the chance, since chances are you'll get it cheaply.
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Postby Dorvan » Thu Aug 28, 2008 3:28 pm

Vanifae wrote:http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=9336665063&postId=93355958824&sid=2000#0

Made my suggestion you might like it Dorvan.


Yeah, as I three-parter the talent description comes across as rather inelegant. I agree with it in principle though.
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Postby Vanifae » Thu Aug 28, 2008 3:45 pm

Dorvan wrote:
Vanifae wrote:http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=9336665063&postId=93355958824&sid=2000#0

Made my suggestion you might like it Dorvan.


Yeah, as I three-parter the talent description comes across as rather inelegant. I agree with it in principle though.

Yeah I didn't like that either but I wanted to appease the but what about my healing masses.
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hrm

Postby Mavrix » Thu Aug 28, 2008 3:58 pm

I would say they should just implement the 2 spec thing and stop trying so hard to make every spec hybrid.
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Postby Sabindeus » Thu Aug 28, 2008 4:32 pm

Dorvan wrote:For me it's the general issue that depending on both AP and SP is much more likely to lead to unintended balance issues than simply one or the other, and we've already seen that in the case of Ret Pallies for example. After seeing all the ways Blizzard's screwed up hybrid melee/spell mecanics over the past 3 years, I'm ready to jump completely on board with one framework or the other, and since AP seems to be the decision from Blizzard, the more distance we put between ourselves and SP the better imo.


Just think of Sheathe like Ret Paladins have 15% extra AP and better heals. That's all it is.
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Postby Dorvan » Thu Aug 28, 2008 4:38 pm

Sabindeus wrote:Just think of Sheathe like Ret Paladins have 15% extra AP and better heals. That's all it is.


Except it's not AP....it's got an entirely separate set of coefficients which are completely unnecessary for Prot/Ret. It *should* work out like you've said, but Blizzard's screwed up a lot of Hybrids mechanics that seemingly *should* have been ok in the past, and I see no reason to cling to an outdated stat when we could simply move entirely to a simpler model that's completely in line with the itemization we're getting on all of the rest of our gear.
Last edited by Dorvan on Thu Aug 28, 2008 4:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Vanifae » Thu Aug 28, 2008 4:38 pm

Sabindeus wrote:
Dorvan wrote:For me it's the general issue that depending on both AP and SP is much more likely to lead to unintended balance issues than simply one or the other, and we've already seen that in the case of Ret Pallies for example. After seeing all the ways Blizzard's screwed up hybrid melee/spell mecanics over the past 3 years, I'm ready to jump completely on board with one framework or the other, and since AP seems to be the decision from Blizzard, the more distance we put between ourselves and SP the better imo.


Just think of Sheathe like Ret Paladins have 15% extra AP and better heals. That's all it is.

I want more attack power :(
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Postby Mithos » Fri Aug 29, 2008 6:11 am

Very nice thread, thanks for this.

Can I ask where Tempest of Chaos comes on the graph? Didn't see it on there, although based on the other weapons and info I would say it's probably a tiny bit below Reign of Misery.

Wow, I want a Muramasa even more now, but I wonder how our next major update will change all of this.
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Postby Lore » Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:30 am

Dorvan wrote:
Vanifae wrote:I sometimes wish Touched by the Light just gave 30% increase to Attack power :(

Although I guess that would ruin our Hybrid capabilities.


For Hybrid capabilities just make it increase only our healing power (I know for example that school-specific spellpower exists, so I don't see why healing-specific spellpower wouldn't be possible).

I've been busy posting to existing threads thus far, but I plan on making a separate topic for this on the Beta boards "soon" :P


Really though, if it only increased healing capabilities, who would spec it?

The idea behind changing talents is to make them good, not make them unwanted.
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Postby Dorvan » Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:33 am

Lore wrote:Really though, if it only increased healing capabilities, who would spec it?

The idea behind changing talents is to make them good, not make them unwanted.


I agree, though if no one want the extra healing capability, why do you care about losing it? It's not the healing utility I object to though, it's the awkward scaling design....I have no objection on principle to a talent that helps both our tanking and our offhealing.
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