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Imp. SoR vs Benediction/Imp. Judgement

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Imp. SoR vs Benediction/Imp. Judgement

Postby Furiouso » Thu Jul 12, 2007 12:12 pm

So I recently spec'ed to Imp. SoR in order to get Imp. LoH, and I think the difference is negligible. Here's some math!

Say you spend (making up numbers for convenience) 100 mana every cycle to judge and reseal SoR, and by default this is every 10 seconds. JoR does 100 damage each time too.

With Benediction/Imp. Judgement:
100 mana -> 85 mana
10 sec -> 8 sec
100 damage -> 100 damage per judgement

So you wind up with 10.6 mps spent, 12.5 dps, 1.17 dpm.

With Imp. SoR:
100 mana -> 100 mana
10 sec -> 10 sec
100 damage -> 115 damage per judgement

So you wind up with 10.0 mps spent, 11.5 dps, 1.15 dpm.

I'm not even counting the higher damage from each SoR proc per weapon hit, as I don't have an easy correlation for this. But it looks like we can conclude that Imp. SoR is already more mana efficient per time, marginally worse at damage per mana, and about 10% worse at dps only considering judgements. Considering seal procs it's probably equivalent or perhaps even better.

I'm too lazy to pull up the actual numbers for how SoR works, but this makes me feel pretty justified in spec'ing away from Benediction/Imp. Judgement for Imp. SoR to get Imp. LoH. I lose out on mana savings from other seals, but Divine Intellect helps with that initial cost. Imp. SoR also scales with spell damage now, I believe.

I lose Deflection, but I have enough block now mid-Kara to make up for that and maintain uncrushable. In working towards the goal of becoming a high threat tank, I think taking a bit more measured damage by reducing pure avoidance and pumping up mitigation through block will help proc Holy Shield more often and will feed us more mana in the end to continue to blow our highest rank spells.

People talk about the difficulty of working in a 10 second cooldown on Holy Shield around the 8 second cooldown of Imp. Judgement, and this is an easy way to alleviate that :) Although I will miss having the 8 second cooldown in 5 man instances, I don't find it a complete necessity that can't be worked around.
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Re: Imp. SoR vs Benediction/Imp. Judgement

Postby Prepared » Thu Jul 12, 2007 9:37 pm

Furiouso wrote:I'm too lazy to pull up the actual numbers for how SoR works, but this makes me feel pretty justified in spec'ing away from Benediction/Imp. Judgement for Imp. SoR to get Imp. LoH. I lose out on mana savings from other seals, but Divine Intellect helps with that initial cost. Imp. SoR also scales with spell damage now, I believe.


I'm too lazy to actually read your post, since it goes beyond theorycrafting and into hypotheticrafting.
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Postby Furiouso » Fri Jul 13, 2007 2:30 am

Thanks, that was a really helpful comment that was a good use of my and your time.

Alls I'm saying is that 5/5 Imp. SoR and 5/5 Benediction + 2/2 Imp. Judgement work out to be about the same in terms of mana efficiency and DPS, over say a long boss fight or something. There'll be cases where a shorter cooldown is better for snap aggro, but all I wanted to say was that there's a viable non-cookie cutter 0/49/12 spec.
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Postby Downpour » Fri Jul 13, 2007 2:37 am

Does having imp LoH make up for the enormous difference between 5% block from gear, and 5% parry from talents though? I'm 12 in ret for deflection, no benediction & imp judgement.
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Postby Furiouso » Fri Jul 13, 2007 3:36 am

Ultimately you are taking more damage. If you need the 5% avoidance in order to hit uncrushable, then obviously you should keep those. If you can be uncrushable without the 5% parry, then you only need to worry about those parries becoming blocked hits and increasing your damage intake by a bit.
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Postby Downpour » Fri Jul 13, 2007 5:38 am

It's not about just being uncrushable.
It's our job to maintain enough threat to hold the mob while limiting the amount of incoming damage as much as possible.
I could quite easily be uncrushable without 5% parry, just like i could stack another 5% block and gain a few K health, but overall it would be detrimental. 5% block instead of parry is still about 5% more damage taken.

I use LoH so infrequently that I've never been in a raid situation where I've needed it and it'd CD has been 1-20m, and while the armour is a certain boost, it's just not enough to spec for it, particularly when it's so far away in my 0/49/12.
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Postby Jaydin » Fri Jul 13, 2007 5:57 am

imp loh can be nice vs a boss that enrages...its like a shieldwall that we can use every 40 minutes...had that vs the curator and it worked like a charm

its tough tho...i personally prefer deflection, but give it a try and see how it works ^_^ experimentation beats theorycrafting anyday
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Postby Prepared » Fri Jul 13, 2007 7:16 am

Furiouso wrote:Thanks, that was a really helpful comment that was a good use of my and your time.

Alls I'm saying is that 5/5 Imp. SoR and 5/5 Benediction + 2/2 Imp. Judgement work out to be about the same in terms of mana efficiency and DPS, over say a long boss fight or something. There'll be cases where a shorter cooldown is better for snap aggro, but all I wanted to say was that there's a viable non-cookie cutter 0/49/12 spec.


And all I'm saying is that, without numbers from how the spells actually work in the game, your "math" really proves nothing.

Plus, it fails to actually take into account the loss of avoidance from missing 5% parry, even if you are uncrushable. Threat means nothing if you're a liability to your healers, or you get yourself killed.

**EDIT: fixed "crushable" with "uncrushable"**
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Postby Furiouso » Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:44 am

Prepared wrote:And all I'm saying is that, without numbers from how the spells actually work in the game, your "math" really proves nothing.


I don't need real concrete values from the game to prove it, as it's all purely algebraic. Replace each mana cost, cooldown length and JoR damage done with X, Y, Z and the proportions still come out the same no matter what the values are.

Just look at it from damage and cooldown. Wowwiki says the base damage of JoR is 260 at max rank. With a CD of 10 seconds, that's 26dps. With Imp. Judgement, that CD is 8 seconds for 32.5dps. With Imp. SoR the damage output is 15% more at 299 over 10 seconds, so 29.9dps. The handwaving voodoo part comes in where I say the larger SoR procs with Imp. SoR makes up for the 2.6dps difference, but what I want to generalize is that if there is a difference, it isn't so much.

Prepared wrote:Plus, it fails to actually take into account the loss of avoidance from missing 5% parry, even if you are uncrushable. Threat means nothing if you're a liability to your healers, or you get yourself killed.


I acknowledge in my original post that yes damage taken is increased because, of course, a block is not the same as a parry, but that's not part of my original limited assertion that damage done with SoR with both specs is about the same.

In reality, I think the largest component of my threat is from Holy Shield anyway, even when I had 0/49/12.

I find myself running OOM all the time, so I welcome the chance to take a bit more damage, get more healing and have more mana to generate more threat. My damage intake will be less spiky due to being more mitigation centric, but yes overall I would be taking more damage.

I usually see tanks getting killed by spike damage, not healers running out of mana. More avoidance means more spikes, which is why ferals are so nice on bosses like High King Maulgar. Overall they may take more damage because they eat crushes all the time, avoid less and can't block at all, but do it in a way that's much easier to heal.

Maxxing out block rating and value seems to be an interesting approach to tanking, it feels like an interesting niche that I think a few people here have already begun to carve out. On Elitist Jerks there was a paladin tank who is OTing in BT/Hyjal with around 37% block, no Deflection, and is looking for more block!

I also think about the additional threat those additional Holy Shield procs will generate. If I parry less and block more, that's more threat as long as Holy Shield is up. I'm starting to think any charges not used at the end of HS are a waste :)

Sure any tank just gearing up pre-Kara probably needs Deflection though, so this is not for everyone. But I've seen warrior tanks with even worse avoidance than I do even without Deflection, so take that for what you will.
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Postby Prepared » Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:07 am

Now your post only takes Benediction versus Imp. SoR, and leaves out Imp. Judgement.

Not to mention the fact you are taking 10 talent points and comparing them to 12.

I like apples better than oranges, myself.

What we need to do, is run some numbers on full mana -> zero mana, assuming no heals, no regen, no reckoning and no resists, because those are things that can't really be accurately predicted.

Basically a cycle of prepping SoR, and judging, figuring in average damage over time for the weapon speed of... what, 1.6?

No buffs/debuffs on the mob. Sound fair? This should determine, without argument, which would generate more threat per mana, and which would run out of mana sooner.

That said: spell damage, CoT sword + enchant, or less for the test? I have pretty flexible gear.
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Postby Furiouso » Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:30 am

Prepared wrote:Now your post only takes Benediction versus Imp. SoR, and leaves out Imp. Judgement.

Not to mention the fact you are taking 10 talent points and comparing them to 12.


Um, no I left out Benediction for the decreased mana cost. I left in Imp. Judgement for the 8 second cooldown. Read a bit more carefully. I also originally compared 7 talent points to 5, and weighed the consequences of losing Deflection and I write off Divine Intellect as sort of a waste.

Really tho. Just figure out what your SoR and JoR procs are with just Continuum + 40 for 161 spelldamage, no Righteous or Justicar, etc, no SotC. Don't mess with draining your mana, or calculating totals, lag and crits will affect the results. I have Divine Intellect anyway, so that would have screwed things up. Here's my stuff:

Continuum is 1.8 speed
Judgement is 10 sec CD
JoR average non-crit is 427, 427/10 = 42.7 dps
SoR average is 92, 92/1.8 = 51.1 dps
Judgement cost is 147 mana, 147/10 = 14.7 mps
SoR cost is 260 mana, 260/10 = 26.0 mps

Total SoR+JoR DPS is 93.8 dps, and I spend 40.7 mps doing it. I have the extra added benefit in my spec of having easier math to do, divide by 10 FTW :)

I also did some numbers with Gavel of Pure Light for zero spelldamage, as a baseline

Gavel of Pure Light is 1.9 speed
Judgement is 10 sec CD
JoR average non-crit is 285, 285/10 = 28.5 dps
SoR average is 64, 64/1.9 = 33.7 dps
Judgement cost is 147 mana, 147/10 = 14.7 mps
SoR cost is 260 mana, 260/10 = 26.0 mps

Total SoR+JoR DPS is 62.2 dps, and I spend 40.7 mps doing it.

Yes it's apple and oranges. Where did I say Imp. SoR was clearly better? I think I've just been saying it's about the same, though perhaps SoR procs will scale better as we get better spelldamage. Looking forward to your results.
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Postby Prepared » Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:05 pm

Looking at all this, I can't help but wonder where the calculator is for this. I know someone was starting on one. I even remember punching in some numbers once.
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Postby Girard » Fri Jul 13, 2007 2:51 pm

Eh.. your numbers aren't right.

First off, average JoR is 235.5, not 285
(225+245)/2 = 235.5 (rank 9)
And since it gains only 50% of yer damage, it should judge for
235.5 + (161/2) or 316.

Secondly, weapon speed for SoR plays a big factor in the average DPS. Even .1s can make about a 2dps difference

Using a 1.8 speed weapon I get:
SoR: 28dps
JoR: 23.55dps
so 51.55 DPS

Adding 161 +dmg and I get:
SoR: 57.53 DPS
JoR: 31.6 DPS
so.. 89.13 DPS

For the record, the formula I use is:
(22+(2*weaponspeed*10)-30)+(weaponspeed*0.09*spelldamage)

(edit: I was using imp judgement numbers, corrected to reflect 10s cooldown)
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Postby Furiouso » Fri Jul 13, 2007 4:02 pm

Girard wrote:Eh.. your numbers aren't right.


Girard are your numbers game tested? That's where mine are from, I'm online trying these things out right now, and my numbers are exactly the results I get. Oh and mine are WITH the Imp. SoR talent, *bonks own head*
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Postby Girard » Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:11 pm

Furiouso wrote:
Girard wrote:Eh.. your numbers aren't right.


Girard are your numbers game tested? That's where mine are from, I'm online trying these things out right now, and my numbers are exactly the results I get. Oh and mine are WITH the Imp. SoR talent, *bonks own head*

The spreadsheet I made uses verified formulas that have been tested by others and myself, as well as published in WoWWiki. =p

And yes, I've verified them in game as best as I can. Usually off by 1-2pts at most.
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