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The purpose of Weapon Expertise

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Postby Alixander » Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:30 am

Ignus wrote:(I'm assuming no chance for them to have gotten the wrong info from the devs 2 times :P )
Unless it was the same CM saying the same info they got from the Dev, or a CM merely copying the info they saw in the post you linked.
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Postby Nidal » Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:23 am

If 3/5 is good, wouldn't 5/5 be better? Give up the Spell Warding or Improved Judgement?

Those two talents always seem to be 'why not there isn't anything better' talents to me. 4% less magic damage isn't really a significant number, and Improved Judgement is mainly a threat generator which by all accounts isn't really a problem for us.

Hmm, why not give up both and go 5/5 and 2/3 Precision? More synergy by combining those two.
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Postby Fridmarr » Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:12 am

Nidal wrote:If 3/5 is good, wouldn't 5/5 be better? Give up the Spell Warding or Improved Judgement?

Those two talents always seem to be 'why not there isn't anything better' talents to me. 4% less magic damage isn't really a significant number, and Improved Judgement is mainly a threat generator which by all accounts isn't really a problem for us.

Hmm, why not give up both and go 5/5 and 2/3 Precision? More synergy by combining those two.


Well that's a balance decision you'll have to make. Threat is much more of an issue than a lot of folks think. Karazhan with all its undead mobs gives some rather misleading perceptions of pally threat.
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Postby Nidal » Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:36 am

With 5/5 and 2/3 you'll also produce more threat. Assuming that the data on the fewer enemy parries is correct. More hits= more threat. So not only do you get less parry induced spike damage but also more threat due to hitting more often.

Sigh, guess the only thing for it is to bite the 20g and respec yet again and test it out for awhile...
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Postby Glam » Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:19 pm

20g??? You are lucky. Mine always seems to stay at 50g.
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Postby Kellypreston » Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:40 pm

I would agree that Weapon Expertise would be great if it affected a boss' parry rate, however, here is a bit of evidence to the contrary: http://elitistjerks.com/showpost.php?p= ... stcount=64

Looks like they combined the Parry into reduced dodge. This is a pretty large sample size, and is no means conclusive, but the numbers are compelling. For reference, the top pally has 365 weapon skill and the bottom one has 350.
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Postby Alixander » Tue Jul 10, 2007 1:29 pm

You linked the information that brings to doubt the statement of weapon skill = decreased parry. Problem is they are only testing it vs. one boss and more specifically a "old world" boss. While I don't doubt that the information there is valid testing, there are variables that have not been accounted for such as how often the boss they fought normally parried, if being an "old world" boss gave lower skills (could be that boss skill levels are preset) and other things.
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Postby Sabindeus » Tue Jul 10, 2007 2:54 pm

Alixander wrote:You linked the information that brings to doubt the statement of weapon skill = decreased parry. Problem is they are only testing it vs. one boss and more specifically a "old world" boss. While I don't doubt that the information there is valid testing, there are variables that have not been accounted for such as how often the boss they fought normally parried, if being an "old world" boss gave lower skills (could be that boss skill levels are preset) and other things.


It's been conclusively proven that boss skill levels are always 3 levels above yours.
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Postby Kvaern » Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:18 pm

Fridmarr wrote:
Nidal wrote:If 3/5 is good, wouldn't 5/5 be better? Give up the Spell Warding or Improved Judgement?

Those two talents always seem to be 'why not there isn't anything better' talents to me. 4% less magic damage isn't really a significant number, and Improved Judgement is mainly a threat generator which by all accounts isn't really a problem for us.

Hmm, why not give up both and go 5/5 and 2/3 Precision? More synergy by combining those two.


Well that's a balance decision you'll have to make. Threat is much more of an issue than a lot of folks think. Karazhan with all its undead mobs gives some rather misleading perceptions of pally threat.



That's what I thought as well until I got a healthy amount of spelldamage.

When I gear for spelldamage I generally sustain around 1k tps on non undead/demons, without using AW, and top out at around 1600 TPS when blowing everything on pala friendly fast hitters like TK Vindicators. I've yet to see a warrior come even close to that.

Mind ya I setup my MT group for max tankadin support.
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Postby Joanadark » Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:25 pm

It's been conclusively proven that boss skill levels are always 3 levels above yours.
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Postby Alixander » Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:51 pm

I can and do believe a boss mob is 3 levels above in terms of resists and attacks towards you, but what about mobs with above average traits in certain areas. Like some boss mobs have over 5% chance to crit. It adds things which aren't normally considered into the equation. Things aren't as cut and dry as you paint them.
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Postby Lore » Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:14 pm

I know of one creature ingame that has over 5% chance to crit, and it's not a boss.
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Postby Kellypreston » Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:15 pm

Alixander wrote:I can and do believe a boss mob is 3 levels above in terms of resists and attacks towards you, but what about mobs with above average traits in certain areas. Like some boss mobs have over 5% chance to crit. It adds things which aren't normally considered into the equation. Things aren't as cut and dry as you paint them.


Regardless of if a boss has a 20% parry rate or a 5% parry rate normally, the difference between two weapon skills would be identical unless reduced to the point where the boss is no longer parrying.
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Postby Phaex » Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:53 pm

Thanks for that information.
I never thought of less parry actually decreases damage income.

I looked at weapon exp in a different way the last few days. I'm usually tanking with vengeance, and i see myself having alot of trouble to stack it up and keep it at 5. So the basic idea was to try if the effect of weapon exp would be enough to solve that problem.

So now i have more than one argument to go and respecc.
But there is one major problem, where the hell do we take those 5 points from ?

1) drop parry - would be fine if my gear was better
2) drop anticipation - same.
3) spell warding/stoicism/bok - uhm. Not sure about it.
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Postby Alixander » Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:05 pm

Kellypreston wrote:Regardless of if a boss has a 20% parry rate or a 5% parry rate normally, the difference between two weapon skills would be identical unless reduced to the point where the boss is no longer parrying.
You're right. And I won't deny it.

Problem I'm finding is I'm not sure if I can believe the results of the tests on Venoxis. Something's been bothering me for a while upon looking at them, something part of my brain got, but the rest didn't, and I just figured out what it is. If you look at the results linked above by Kelly, both sets of results list around four and a half percent of the attacks were blocks. Now, I'll admit that I may just not be remembering it correctly, but I don't recall Venoxis having a shield. Each night I'm going to be asking if some guildies (only really need 5...) are free to go kick Venoxis in the head, and I will check for myself. But if he doesn't block it begs the question of where that info came from, and if what other data may have been flawed.
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