SoI tanking - should CS even be on my bars?

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Re: SoI tanking - should CS even be on my bars?

Postby boneyjellyfish » Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:40 am

I originally wrote a much longer reply yesterday and then got the message that the server was having problems. I apologize for the oversimplification. :P

Off-tanking is definitely a time when we would want to be using CS over HotR in any case - you just simply do more DPS and raid healing (with the glyph equipped). Otherwise, there are definitely situational nuances to when you would want to use one vs. the other. For instance, tanking Stone Guard you would want to be using HotR at all times. Something like Will you would want to switch to CS when doing the dance but otherwise use HotR for the extra survivability. There are other situations where it's a really tough call - for instance, tanking Gara'jal. Do you increase your own self-healing or help heal the raid members affected by voodoo doll? Spirit Kings - use CS on Qiang, Meng, and Zian and use HotR on Subetai.

There are lots of little nuances to what abilities you should use to maximize personal and raid survivability now that we can see that using HotR over CS is a pretty substantial personal survivability buff. Much of this becomes less of a headache if you don't use Glyph of the Battle Healer, thus my previous comment.

Anyway, thanks for the help everyone. I now know that I should probably keep CS on my action bars. :)
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Re: SoI tanking - should CS even be on my bars?

Postby lifeonmars » Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:09 pm

In practical terms I'm not really sure that using HotR in this manner is something that we should really get used to doing. This is obviously not intended behavior, and I think the best bet is this is going to likely get bugfixed (and possibly even in a stealth manner).
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Re: SoI tanking - should CS even be on my bars?

Postby boneyjellyfish » Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:16 pm

Do GotBH heals still generate threat? I've recently noticed an interesting phenomenon during Wind Lord: the adds that break out of CC don't come after me anymore. What would generate more threat at 100k vengeance: CS + the extra raid healing or HotR + the extra self healing?
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Re: SoI tanking - should CS even be on my bars?

Postby theckhd » Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:38 pm

Almost certainly HotR. You get an extra SoI proc for each target hit by the nova, so your own self-healing will be much larger. It's also possible they disabled threat on Battle Healer though - I haven't checked lately.
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Re: SoI tanking - should CS even be on my bars?

Postby Diceone » Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:17 am

Hard to tell if it's SoI healing or battle healer healing but with the battle healer procing off of every hit from HotR I don't have any trouble snagging the threat from the adds that come back into the fight for heroic wind lord. Even with our dk tanking throwing down a DnD to keep them off of the healers in a worst case they come straight to me.
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Re: SoI tanking - should CS even be on my bars?

Postby Jaitee » Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:45 pm

looks like the nova on HotR is no longer procing SoI just did my karasang dailies and did my usual pull every single mob in the entire enemy fortress technique and was wondering why i was having trouble staying alive then i noticed i was at most getting 1-2 procs of SoI at a time
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Re: SoI tanking - should CS even be on my bars?

Postby Syyllinen » Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:28 am

Jaitee wrote:looks like the nova on HotR is no longer procing SoI just did my karasang dailies and did my usual pull every single mob in the entire enemy fortress technique and was wondering why i was having trouble staying alive then i noticed i was at most getting 1-2 procs of SoI at a time


Sad day for paladin tanks tbh. Sure it was expected to be fixed / nerfed, but still I enjoyed the way HotR worked with SoI.
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Re: SoI tanking - should CS even be on my bars?

Postby ZorKesh » Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:00 pm

Strange things.
Seal:giving melee attacks a chance to heal you
Glyph of Battle Healer: Using melee attacks while using Seal of Insight heals a nearby injured friendly target

But we have Glyph procs from AoE, and no Seal proc from same AoE. Where's "the bug"?

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/eqvd ... ?s=59&e=86
Sorry for "Russian" logs =)
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Re: SoI tanking - should CS even be on my bars?

Postby theckhd » Tue Dec 18, 2012 5:31 pm

ZorKesh wrote:Strange things.
Seal:giving melee attacks a chance to heal you
Glyph of Battle Healer: Using melee attacks while using Seal of Insight heals a nearby injured friendly target

But we have Glyph procs from AoE, and no Seal proc from same AoE. Where's "the bug"?

It's not a bug. They can independently turn on or off seal procs for each ability independently (even individual seals - for example, Judgment triggers SoT, but not SoI/SoR). It's pretty clear that they decided to turn off seal procs from the nova portion of HotR entirely. Probably in response to the EJ ret thread noticing that the nova was proccing Seal of Justice on every target it hit as well, leading to SoJ outperforming SoR in many AoE situations.
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Re: SoI tanking - should CS even be on my bars?

Postby Fetzie » Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:08 am

leading to SoJ outperforming SoR in many AoE situations.

Given that rolling Censure on one or two targets is more damage than SoR even on a 10+ pull, maybe they should just have buffed SoR instead?
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Re: SoI tanking - should CS even be on my bars?

Postby theckhd » Wed Dec 19, 2012 6:51 am

I don't think that's true at all. Last I checked, the crossover point was 6+ targets for Retribution. For us it's even lower thanks to a severely nerfed Censure. Probably 3+ targets for us, I'd guess (aoe sims should be forthcoming within a week or two, they're written, I just need some time to sit down and work out a comprehensive list of queues).

That said, I don't think there'd be much harm in buffing SoR for either/both spec (in our case, they'd have to buff SoT slightly too to keep it ahead of SoR on single targets). On the other hand, you have to waste a GCD to swap seals, whereas you don't need to change anything to switch to HotR/DivStorm. It's probably more convenient to not have to change seals except for very large groups.
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Re: SoI tanking - should CS even be on my bars?

Postby Marilee » Sun Dec 23, 2012 2:13 pm

"The self heal from Seal of Insight will trigger approximately 33% more often."
http://us.battle.net//wow/en/blog/7922045

Looks like single target got a buff, though.
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Re: SoI tanking - should CS even be on my bars?

Postby Extermi » Mon Dec 24, 2012 9:20 am

This is for compensating that the nova does not trigger heals anymore ...
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Re: SoI tanking - should CS even be on my bars?

Postby boneyjellyfish » Mon Dec 24, 2012 5:20 pm

Is it safe to assume that Glyph of the Battle Healer still procs off nova hits?
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