[H] DPS o.o

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Re: [H] DPS o.o

Postby Baelik » Tue May 26, 2009 2:00 am

Steep DPS requirements you guys have.

Brain can only account so much for DPS but unfortunately like everything else in this game, having the right gear matters. Pretty much every Melee DPS class doesn't reach its potential till they obtain Epic weapons from there on Minimum Hit and Crit, Expertise Cap and so on. Never played Caster DPS classes but I assume they rely on stats early on and the weapon is just another stat boost.

I have people at 80 doing between 1100 DPS to 3000 DPS. But I'd say a decent DPS average for doing heroic dungeons is 1500.
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Re: [H] DPS o.o

Postby ldeboer » Wed May 27, 2009 12:05 am

There is also a subjective thing in heroics that you can only do high DPS if the others are doing low for most classes. If you had 3 dps that were *capable of pulling >3K* they would do about 2K in a heroic because the stuff just dies too fast.

I know when I am on my mage in FFB spec living bomb barely ever goes off because they kill the targets too quick the only reason you put it on is for the chance it crits and gives u free pyro.

I would also say certain classes, DK's, OOMKin and dps warrior, always show higher dps in heroics that doesn't translate to higher dps in naxx from what I have seen. Mages and locks only show average DPS in heroics yet jump up towards the tops of table in Naxx as they get alot more from raid buffs and longer fights allowing there DOTS to eat more dmg.

I set my baseline lower 1.2K is fine 1.5K-1.8K is good 2.5k+ why are u in here?

Some heroics actually require no minimum DPS
Herioc UK --- I have run 4 man with 2 tanks, 1 dps and heals .. only challenge was 2nd boss pair
Heroic COS -- LOS the 1st boss/healer so it can't chain healer ... rest are trivial surviving long periods but no drake for you :-)

Heroics that I would not try without good DPS
Heroic HOS -- The laser room event is a nightmare if u cant get grps down before next lot appear
Heroic UTP -- Everything past the first boss is easier the higher the dps
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Re: [H] DPS o.o

Postby olih27 » Mon Jun 01, 2009 2:15 am

Baelik wrote:1400 on Normal Sarth is acceptable considering that he is ranged and is doing less running and has more DPS uptime than most melee in that encounter.

Your group just denied someone loot that was rightfully theirs based on your looting system. Thats a big "No No!" in my books.


I do agree with that, although hunters less dps uptime than most on sarth as they are expected to control the adds to some degree, very little of the dps goes to the boss unless all adds are dead.

Gotta say very interesting post, my main is a hunter, i joined a group about 30 mins after dinging 80 to go to UK hc, turns out we actually went UP. Anyway i was able to do 1.3k dps thorugh most of it, i hit 70 the day wotlk came out so no raiding purps, i was in greens with the odd blue. At the time i was saving for my epic flyer (you will laugh at this) and so had only bought about 5 spells since lvl 68.
In that situation 1.3k dps is pretty good i would think, anything lower than that and something is really wrong, hell give me the giants bane gun from ulduar and i could prob do 1.3k dps naked ! :)
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Re: [H] DPS o.o

Postby Pizbit » Mon Jul 27, 2009 1:17 am

1.5k minimum dps or they're slacking, no excuses.
If below they need to finish questing and running normals. That or get someone else to carry them.
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Re: [H] DPS o.o

Postby dougmcdonald » Tue Aug 04, 2009 12:39 am

I would also say certain classes, DK's, OOMKin and dps warrior, always show higher dps in heroics that doesn't translate to higher dps in naxx from what I have seen.


I'd disagree slightly with the OOMkin comment a bit here (perhaps because it's my alt!) firstly, OOMkin really shouldn't be an issue unless you've a lot of haste for your crit, or are chaining hurricane without using innervate when it's up.
That aside, personally I find moonkins can suffer quite a lot in heroics with a lot of movement or no significant AOE groups. Due to our damage coming from both DOTS and Starfire which can have a relatively large cast time, it's common to suffer the same issues you describe with other classes in that the mobs die to fast to do significant damage.
Couple that with the unpredictable nature of ecplise procs and on an unlucky run in something like VH with the kitey and water bosses I've dps'd as low as 1400 :( ...but on a luckier proccing run in UP yesterday I was up at 2.8k.

Whilst moonkins are perhaps not as dependent on buffs, the variety of bosses and length of time trash takes to die can have an impact on any DPS and this is still true imo.

That aside, I would agree with the dps = gear level, style of arguement, an 200-213 epic geared mage pulling 1500 is not to hot, whereas a 187 blue geared *any class* would gain more respect for the same 1500 dps. There are obvious other things to take into account, priests mindcontrolling, druids battle ressing, any class off healing etc would obviously reduce dps below the theoretical max of that player. high DPS does not always equal high ability but low dps does not always equal low ability.

You need to make the judgement as to whether the DPS is failing and take appropriate actions.
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Re: [H] DPS o.o

Postby yappo » Tue Aug 04, 2009 8:19 am

And then of course you have the runs where you gear up a guild alt recently dinging 80. Deliberate carrying, sure, but it's still faster than having them pugging their gear to decent. Quests and normal instances are more or less out of the question. I've seen people start a night at 900 dps and ending it at 1600, which translates to some six heroics done, two epics won and four or five blues as well (we're talking usable gear here). NOW they're ready to pug on their own :D

It'll be a lot faster from now on, of course, with conquest emblems dropping right and left.
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Re: [H] DPS o.o

Postby Florisia » Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:13 am

For heroics, we started doing them almost right at 80. At the time, there were a fair amount of high priced BoEs on the AH, so we geared up with some BoEs and literally dove headfirst into heroics. We started with Nexus and VH, then gradually moved into Gundrak and Occ. During the time my DPS(yay tank) moved from about 900 to 1500ish, and my rogue friend went from 1.3k(Boss) to 2.7k(Boss) and with erratic DPS on trash.

For most of our runs, I can't bring myself to blame the DPS of our DPSers as a reason for us wiping, unless its on a time sensitive boss(Archavon is the only one I can think of at the moment, even though he's not 5 man), or bosses were adds have to be maintained(killed) by someone other than the tank(Like the VH voidwalker dude), or the healer just straight runs out of mana(And even that isn't completely one sided).

For time sensitive bosses, if you wipe because the timer expired, it's pretty much difinitive that you don't have enough DPS, or your DPS wasn't doing their job right(In which case it is still a lack of DPS).

For add bosses, it's kinda situational. DPS should normally burn down adds that are the most dangerous to the health of the group, but most adds that are like that(Citing Emalon and the VH void walker dude as examples), the adds ususally aren't that tough, and if the adds manage to jack up someone, it's -ususally- because the DPS simply isn't attacking them, but still can be that their DPS is too low.

On the mana situation, it's kinda hard to point the finger, but it's a case where low DPS does factor in. The longer the tank has to take damage, the more the healer has to heal. Granted, mana efficency(The healer) and survivibility/avoidance(the tank) also play big factors in that, but if the fight is dragging on, that wipe is probably the fault of the DPS.

Well. That's my take on it all.
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Re: [H] DPS o.o

Postby Kiorken » Thu Aug 20, 2009 1:04 pm

Best advice, do what I call "investment". Once in a while, pug some freshly dinged dps, and run them through REGULAR Trial of the Champion, until they have about 3-4 epics. Add them to your friend's list. Get them in the guild. This way, you always have a good amount of friends, with semi respectable gear, ready to get on with the heroics. I built a whole 10 man this way, including gearing myself for tanking. We ran 10 naxx twice now(I'm a new tank, usually play Holy).

Don't be afraid to let the DPS know what to expect. As others have mentioned, attempt to gauge then before taking them in the instance, look at their gear, and their spec, get used to what specs do what, and what they are capable of. If you see a DK in half leather with his talents all over the place, this is a good indication that he doesn't know what he's doing.

You are looking for about 1.6+ dps, bar none. Warlocks as Affliction are understandable on trash, but should be the most devastating on bosses. If you ever have a dps that dips lower than you, something is very wrong. Yes, on trash, you can pull off some impressive personal dps, but thats not the point.

My trick? My father plays a well geared, well played 3.3k+ dps Arms warrior. My good friend plays a well geared, well played 3.6k+ dps Arcane mage, and my other good friend plays a 3.3k+ dps Surv hunter. Guess what, they are all in my guild. Always, always attempt to get dps from the guild. There are a looooot of bads out there. Pugging a healer is one thing, pugging fail dps is wipeworthy. Thats why you "invest".

I would like to see 1.4k DPS attempt to run 25 Thaddius....*shudders*
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Re: [H] DPS o.o

Postby blkthunder » Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:48 pm

Dps just need to be trained. Like most classes a trained monkey could pull 3k dps if they know what they're supposed to do. I tell pugs this when we start... "make sure your aoe spells are on your bar and dont dps unless i have more than 3 mobs on me." When you do this you almost guarentee that your dps will be good. they know what they should be doing, they knwo what you'll be doing, and should be minimal down time.
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Re: [H] DPS o.o

Postby phaqueue » Mon Aug 31, 2009 12:31 am

I have kicked DPS for being too low...

we had a DK doing about 700-800 DPS the other day...

If I am more than Doubling your DPS as the tank ( I routinely do 2000-2400 depending on the instance and how many mobs I'm pulling) - you can be sure that I'm kicking you...

if you are at least keeping up fairly well... then I'll keep you...

I've gotten more adamant about this now that people seem to think you need full epics to tank a heroic... if I need to be geared and intelligent - I expect you to do the same...
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Re: [H] DPS o.o

Postby Sanctius » Wed Sep 09, 2009 6:35 am

Don't worry too much if you find DPS being below you on metres on DPS and/or damage. I generally find myself either top or second top in heroics while tanking on damage and either equaling or close on DPS.

I range in DPS anything between 2k single target on bosses to up to 5k + on speed runs where I'm tanking around 2 groups at a time.

DPS nowadays should easily be hitting over 2k in heroics although I just came out of one with a kitty druid who wasn't even hitting 900.. L2P issues I smell there :P
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Re: [H] DPS o.o

Postby bldavis » Sun Oct 18, 2009 10:59 pm

Nemuria wrote: With the main, I run Naxx with ppl who need summoning because they just dinged and don't even have a fly. They can't even break 2K dps raid buffed. They get epics from the run, even offspec item, because nobody really needs it.


:o :roll:

when i hit 80 on my hunter main, i was happy to break 1.2k in BM spec, but i didnt even TOUCH a raid until i could hold 2k in a heroic (highest in bm i could get was 1.6 overall 2.3 on 1! boss took switching to surv) and i think anyone who researches a good dps spec/rotation can pull at least 1.2k less then that and they need to get some quests and possibly lower dungeons for some gear.

even with my 2k dps spikes at the time i was able to break 3k raid buffed in OS 10 (where i got less is more - 8ppl)

if dps is UNDER 2k IN A RAID! they need to l2play there is NO excuse! i would boot from even regular! 80 dungeon runs >2k raid buffed means prob less then 1k reg

sad very very sad even my wifes 78 mage can break 1k EASY :twisted:
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Re: [H] DPS o.o

Postby Tchenobog » Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:45 am

olih27 wrote:1400 on Normal Sarth is acceptable considering that he is ranged and is doing less running and has more DPS uptime than most melee in that encounter.

Your group just denied someone loot that was rightfully theirs based on your looting system. Thats a big "No No!" in my books.


I do agree with that, although hunters less dps uptime than most on sarth as they are expected to control the adds to some degree, very little of the dps goes to the boss unless all adds are dead.
[/quote]
I disagree with this point, dps time on the adds is still DPS time, good (read: Hardworking) hunters shouldn't lose much DPS when switching targets, and if you're having to tranq shot often then your DPS shouldn't be the first question anyway
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Re: [H] DPS o.o

Postby Baelik » Sun Nov 08, 2009 6:59 am

This is a very old post. I think we should just lay this thread to rest.

Now, everyones happily grinding ToC normal and Argent Tournament Dailies to get their 200 ilevel gear before venturing out on other stuff.

My original point still applies though. If someone is of any use in the raid, you should not deny him loot he is eligible for. If he put in some effort then he should be rewarded.
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Re: [H] DPS o.o

Postby guillex » Mon Nov 09, 2009 9:59 am

Baelik wrote:This is a very old post. I think we should just lay this thread to rest.

Now, everyones happily grinding ToC normal and Argent Tournament Dailies to get their 200 ilevel gear before venturing out on other stuff.

My original point still applies though. If someone is of any use in the raid, you should not deny him loot he is eligible for. If he put in some effort then he should be rewarded.


It will lay itself to rest if/when the time comes.

If there are other people out there who can garner information from this thread, along with asking new questions that are pertinent here, then why even bring this up?

Not everyone is 80. Not everyone is farming ToC for gear. Not everyone just jumps into the raiding part of the game. Having at least a little bit of a benchmark discussion to compare things to is a good thing. :)
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