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[H] DPS o.o

Strats / Info that doesn't fit in a specific instance

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Postby Amazadin » Tue Feb 17, 2009 8:00 am

Generally, I like to see my dps doing at least 1500 in heroics, regardless of gear level. There is simply no excuse to not do 1500. Hell, in my ret gear (about 75% T5/SSC/Lvl 70 Badge gear and 25% lvl 80 rep pieces) I can pull 1800 on both trash and Bosses with Might and a Shaman. Someone who leveled up as their respective spec (thus, having the correct gear, and hopefully, the correct play style) should easily be able to do 1500+.

If there is someone doing subpar dps, unless the other 2 dps are making up for it, I will boot them with no remorse. If you can't do as much dps as the Tank who is wearing a hodgepodge of epics and blues, you don't deserve to come along.
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Postby Kelaan » Tue Feb 17, 2009 2:16 pm

Similarly, I ran h.VH with some friends: two T7 geared mages, and a druid who is in mostly quest reward blue gear. Things died before he could really get combo points up, and thus his DPS listed as very very low on trash. I forgot to reset Recount (or take WWS) for individual bosses.

Combo-point based DPS seems to suffer on the AOE trash-spamming that we seem to see. ;)
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Postby Riposte » Wed Feb 18, 2009 1:22 am

Inukshuk wrote:Posts like this make me feel a lot better about my rogue, who can put out just over 2K DPS on movement-free boss fights,but is generally closer to 1700. I don't have raid gear yet, but I'm definitely heroic-geared. It's a combination of the great scaling rogues get from buffs and the DPS killer that is movement fights (whirlwinds, poison clouds, you name it). When they're all buffed out, rogues are fine. In a 5 man where you're getting horn of winter and nothing else, it's rough to push much more than 2K DPS unless you're very heavily geared. At least it is for me.


Honestly, as long as we meet the goals of the group (timer in CoS for example), I don't care what kind of dps is being put out. My ever-present goal is not wiping, so if stuff is just taking too long to kill, I will identify the weak link and not group with them again. Then again, I'm not really wearing great gear, so if they are pushing too much over 3.5k dps there is a real chance they will pull aggro. This is also not a good thing. Enough dps to kill stuff, enough brains to not pull aggro.

My least favorite class up until about a week ago was rogues (I have one and won't likely level it from 70 to 80). Then my healer friend played his rogue, and actually used interrupts etc that made my life a lot easier as a tank. Utility to the group is often just as important as putting out high dps figures. Play your rogue well using all your abilities, not just to see high dps.
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Re: [H] DPS o.o

Postby yappo » Wed Feb 18, 2009 5:24 pm

Mithrumil wrote:
This leads me to my main question, what should I expect a heroic DPS to be able to put out? Is it normal for a tankadin to do more dps than his dps or is it reasonable to expect them to be more around twice what I do? I haven't played a dps class since pre-BC so I really have no idea what I am looking for.

Thanks,
Mithrumil


If your party is pumping 6k DPS sustained when you roll for loot on last boss you're fine. Anything more only reduces the time needed to get to that loot.
And don't get me started on Oculus. I hate that instance.
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Postby Mozen » Sat Feb 21, 2009 4:22 am

elfjorc wrote:People with a brain should be able to hit 2k on heroic bosses easy.

Hell, my 74 Priest was doing 2600 ish in Violet Hold.


I disagree.

Even in five-mans, class synergy plays a huge role. When I ran Halls of Lightning as ret (ran it over ten times within three days), I see my DPS drop to 1.5k when I'm with lots of casters, and sometimes raising to at least 2k minimum when I'm with a melee group.

I do the same thing, only the team members change.

That was with quest blues, regular drops, with the Argent Crusade iLv200 blue 2h-mace. No enchants whatsoever, only green gems.

That brings up another point, it seems that few dps are willing to enchant their blue gear.
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Postby Indago » Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:36 am

While having ppl in your group who can put out high-end dps is useful and even important for some fights, I would much rather have ppl who can function well in a group and be team players. I'd rather have someone who will interrupt a cast or move out of a poison cloud than just stand there mashing buttons like a robot trying to be top dps on the meter.

A good example was an insanely geared hunter I grouped with once in heroic Gundrak. She was really good dps, she did as much as the other 2 dps'ers combined, but she was annoying as hell to play with. As soon as I tossed my shield she would open up with everything she had, spammed aoe's even if I hadn't even touched some of the mobs in the group I pulled, she would even run around the corner and start dps'ing the mobs when I tried to LoS them. Annoying stuff like that which pulled aggro and even got her killed a coupla times (granted, when I'm annoyed I sometimes misplace my taunt button). She is now on my iggy list and I refuse to group with her despite how much dps she can dish out.

I don't really think its always about the amount of damage you can do, its also what you can bring to the group that makes a good dps.
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Postby Chanticleer » Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:17 am

I just popped onto a new server and thus all my runs have been pugs for a while. I'm now at the point where I just don't care about meters anymore. If a rogue puts out 1400dps but never dies to a whirlwind, I'm going to take him every time over a dk that spits out 3k but dies several times from tail swipes, death clouds or cleaves.

Ya can't heal stupid, and dead dps deal no damage, so that's my stance.
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Postby Chanticleer » Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:18 am

I just popped onto a new server and thus all my runs have been pugs for a while. I'm now at the point where I just don't care about meters anymore. If a rogue puts out 1400dps but never dies to a whirlwind, I'm going to take him every time over a dk that spits out 3k but dies several times from tail swipes, death clouds or cleaves.

Ya can't heal stupid, and dead dps deal no damage, so that's my stance.
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Postby Marker » Wed Feb 25, 2009 4:28 am

On the topic of DPS;
I see my DPS as a tank vary a bunch, from 1,4-1,5k-ish to to 1.9k ish on average overall DPS in HCs. I haven't been able to pinpoint the reason for it directly but I'm thinking it's got something to do with group composition. Which groups (and buffs) could provide such an increase in DPS?

Ofc there's also the question of pulling. whenever I have the healing backup to double/tripple pull undead groups throughout the instance, I'm certainly making alot more damage than when I'm fighting single mobs.
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Postby mordran » Wed Feb 25, 2009 8:13 am

Just about every time I run a Heroic it is a PUG, my guild is just getting geared.

I am closing in on 100 Emblems so my experience is limited.

I have seen an individual DPS top 2K a total of 7 times.

I have had Hunters and DKs as low as 900.

An average group is putting out about 3300DPS-4000DPS. It gets the job done but it can be painful.

I had a CoS run where all DPS (so 3 of my 7 times) where putting out over 2K, OMG it was so nice. Got my Drake to boot but I would give it up in second to have that DPS every PUG.
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Postby Neara » Wed Feb 25, 2009 8:33 am

Just got my first alt to 80. My evil, gnome-eating warlock :twisted:


2 hours after i dingd i was finished with 2 heroics. Overall DPS ~1,8k .. single-target boss-dps up to 2,2k

4 hours after ding i was already in a Naxx25 and i got 3,5k DPS on Instructor and 2,8k on Patchwerk (damn noob tank made me lose 800-1200 dps by tanking him right at the edge of the green stuff so my felguard had wet feet the whole fight)

engi-goggles were my only Northrend-purple to this point.


So DPS that sit's at ~1k needs to put both hands on the table and learn about they're class. Shiny purples won't do shit if you don't know what the hell you're doing.
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Postby Asterial » Tue Mar 03, 2009 5:10 am

I do feel your pain. I was also in a similar situation a few weeks ago and did raise another thread about this "We are ready - Are they?"

Basically it was about tanks being expected to be geared appropriately for instances and undergeared DPS hanging on their coattails.




A few weeks ago we also had a handful of dps in our guild who were also fairly new to lvl 80 and were still mainly in levelling gear and pretty under powered weapons.

One thing that people in WotLK need to realise is that as soon as you ding 80 it is not an automatic right that you are ready for a heroic. It took me at least a week of cajoling to get these guys to even research a little bit on the difference between a levelling talent spec and a HC/10man spec that would benefit not just themselves but the whole group.

I do have a high level blacksmith and leatherworker so I even sacrificed quite a chunk of gold to kit them out with some of the better crafted blues (usually the lvl 78 stuff) which was far better than what they were wearing.

I also use Damagemeters and kept an eye on their dps in the non heroics as they were levelling and it was around 1100 to 1300 dps at the very very most which is acceptable if its just 1 out of 3 dps in the group... but if all 3 dps'ers in a heroic are pushing this... you are going to have a very hard time.


There are a couple of easymode heroics providing you can get your people to have a check of the strategies and also keep their wits about them when certain strategies are needed to be done during a fight.

Utgarde Keep is pretty straightforward even in heroic mode. If you and the healer are well geared you can practically boost your dps through it. Its also handy to get hunters the epic x-bow from the last boss... and also the tank the Infantry Assault Blade if they need it. You just have to remember to get them to DPS from behind a few of the mobs... ie the dragons, casters and the last boss.

It doesnt take long for DPS to gear up to a standard that is readily acceptable for heroics.. Whilst levelling my paladin tank which I did as retribution I had 2900 AP at level 79 using the crafted Savage Saronite armour. I did have it enchanted quite well..

It just takes a little preparation and thought by the DPS'ers. Tanks and healers are not just the only class types that need to be ready. Rather than exclude them... encourage them to research their classes regardless of how experienced they were in BC/Outland. Get them to check Wowhead for where items drop that they could gear up with... even its its a blue (some ilevel 200 blues are still amazingly good and in some situations better than the ilevel 200 epics) Things have changed.

Enchants, prismatic gem sockets/gems.... It just takes a bit of extra planning.
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Postby amh » Tue Mar 03, 2009 6:07 am

Asterial wrote:Enchants, prismatic gem sockets/gems.... It just takes a bit of extra planning.


Psst, that prismatic socket in your bracers / gloves / belt can take any gem (except a meta). Not just a prismatic gem.
I used to play a paladin.
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Postby guillex » Tue Mar 03, 2009 6:56 am

Asterial wrote:One thing that people in WotLK need to realise is that as soon as you ding 80 it is not an automatic right that you are ready for a heroic. It took me at least a week of cajoling to get these guys to even research a little bit on the difference between a levelling talent spec and a HC/10man spec that would benefit not just themselves but the whole group.


This, this, a THOUSAND times this.

I was having a candid discussion with my GM the other day when I hit 80, and as we were bantering back and forth I basically said "I just hit 80, and whether you guys need me or not, I'm NOT ready to get into 25s, let alone 10s. I still need to gear/enchant/change specs/gem."

One of the other members in Vent piped up with "I really like that attitude."

I'm not in the best range of gear, but before I finished leveling as Ret, I did a good amount of research on gearing, gem choices, enchants, rotations, etc..

I was graciously allowed to tag along for a 10 man Sarth0 last night, where I had a sustained 1625+ dps. I kept out of void zones, switched to adds when needed, kept away from the tail lash, and generally didn't die. Didn't touch a flame wave, either.

Not only does your DPS have to be competent with rotations and gearing, they also have to be spatially aware. For most of them it's been spamthisabilitythenprofit... But now that we're encountering more and more encounters that are designed to put a spark in our gray matter, finding decent/competent DPS is going to be easier and easier.
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Postby Viycktor » Tue Mar 03, 2009 1:05 pm

Marker wrote:On the topic of DPS;
I see my DPS as a tank vary a bunch, from 1,4-1,5k-ish to to 1.9k ish on average overall DPS in HCs. I haven't been able to pinpoint the reason for it directly but I'm thinking it's got something to do with group composition. Which groups (and buffs) could provide such an increase in DPS?

Ofc there's also the question of pulling. whenever I have the healing backup to double/tripple pull undead groups throughout the instance, I'm certainly making alot more damage than when I'm fighting single mobs.

I find a good unholy DK dps can really push a Prot Paladin through the roof.

Horn of winter (+30 Str and agility) + Ebon Plague (+13% spell damage taken by mobs with the debuff) are both AWESOME for prot pally dps.

Shaman have some good buffs too, but heroism/bloodlust isn't as good for as as it is for a warrior or druid tank.


It's really hard to gauge the quality of your dps by looking at dps meters. You want them to be able to put out crazy dps when they have to, but dps who utilize all of their utility abilities to help the run go smoothly are worth SO much more than alternatives that can put out a little more damage.
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