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Soloing Loatheb

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Soloing Loatheb

Postby Torakka » Wed Dec 10, 2008 6:29 am

After hearing about this I began to wonder if it would actually be possible to solo Loatheb as prot paladin. With enough BV (and being block capped obviously) only damage you would take are Inevitable Doom and Deathbloom. In 25 man raid those do 4k and 3.5k damage. Inevitable Doom is applied every 15 seconds at the worst and Deathbloom afaik about every 30 seconds, however, I'm going to calculate based on both being on 15 second timer to leave some room for error.

With this spec and "abusing" Fungal Bloom you would have about 13% melee crit rate unbuffed and 101% chance to crit with judgement letting you use instant FoL everytime Necrotic Aura allows ie. every 20 seconds. Blessing of Sanctuary would return about 1% of max mana every second, 2/3 Judgements of the Wise about 1.1% of base mana every second, Replenishment (that would be up pretty much permanently) 0.25% of max mana, JoW roughly 0.5% max mana and SoW roughly 2% of max mana resulting a total of about 25% of base mana per five seconds (since max mana > base mana even when unbuffed). FoL is used once every 20 seconds and it takes 7% of base mana => 1.75% per 5s. HS is 10% of base mana and is used every 9 seconds => 5.5% per 5s. Judgement is 5% of base mana every 9 seconds => 2.75% per 5s. ShoR 6% of base mana every 6 seconds => 1% per 5s. Benediction reduces all (by default) instant cast spells' mana cost by 10% so in the end total mana consumption would be about 12% of base mana per five seconds which is more than enough to keep rotation running indefinitely and even throw some bubble-HLs now and then if needed (especially with Divine Plea).

Total damage taken would be (4000+3500) x 0.94 x 0.97 / 15s = 456 DTPS. With one FoL every 20 seconds you would need to do avarage FoL of 9120, but considering that talents and spore buff result in about 63% total spell crit that would mean "only" 6936 avarage non-crit FoLs. According to comments of FoL in Wowhead it has 100% coefficient from spellpower so about 6.1k spellpower would be required to pull this stunt off.

In the end seems like at least this approach will not work in foreseeable future, although my calculations might be wrong and Deathbloom applied only every 30 seconds instead of every 15s. Another tactic that I thought used more conventional prot spec and relied on abusing AD: with those additional damage reduction talents total damage taken would be almost 40% less, but without AoW risk of getting hit by his normal melee is quite big. In theory it would be possible to time 1.5s casts between his 2s (or 2.4s with JotJ) swings, but I can't see anyone managing to consentrate that much for ~4 hours it would take to kill him.
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Postby hoho » Wed Dec 10, 2008 6:46 am

I don't think depending on healing spells would work quite well as you don't have much/any spellpower on your gear while wearing tanking stuff (how else would you get block capped?). Is SoL/JoL also limited same way as regular healing spells?

How about using holy light (+flash of light if you have time for it) when healing is possible? Would damage taken while casting it be too great?
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Postby Torakka » Wed Dec 10, 2008 7:19 am

First I forgot to calculate imp. Devo aura healing bonus, so about 6k spellpower should be enough.

SoL and JoL are both blocked 17s every 20 seconds just like every other heal. You could theoretically start to cast HL 2 seconds before healing window opens and have time to use one insta FoL after it. You would take one normal melee hit due that but in the end that would result in more HP gained.

Like I said at least that approach won't work with current items since even if you could somehow reduce damage taken a bit more and add some extra healing spells cast (like bubble + HLs to both negate few Dooms and heal, bubble wall every CD, LoH every CD, etc...) to bring that spellpower requirement down to one third, it would still be 2k and that's double what I have in tank gear fully buffed.

However, if someone has both shitloads of gold and spare time I think it might be possible to kill him using Flask of Petrification to negate damage of EVERY SINGLE DOOM. Downsides with that tactic are of course ridiculous cost, inability to manually remove flask effect (ie you will be stunned full minute everytime you use that flask, unless talents affect that duration) and the fact that even with four 22 slot bags you can have maximum of 520 of those in inventory (minus the space occupied by repair bots to keep gear usable) which results in about 130 minutes of non-stunned/immune in which you must kill Loatheb or you'll die.
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Postby Elsie » Wed Dec 10, 2008 7:43 am

Torakka wrote:First I forgot to calculate imp. Devo aura healing bonus, so about 6k spellpower should be enough.

SoL and JoL are both blocked 17s every 20 seconds just like every other heal. You could theoretically start to cast HL 2 seconds before healing window opens and have time to use one insta FoL after it. You would take one normal melee hit due that but in the end that would result in more HP gained.

Like I said at least that approach won't work with current items since even if you could somehow reduce damage taken a bit more and add some extra healing spells cast (like bubble + HLs to both negate few Dooms and heal, bubble wall every CD, LoH every CD, etc...) to bring that spellpower requirement down to one third, it would still be 2k and that's double what I have in tank gear fully buffed.

However, if someone has both shitloads of gold and spare time I think it might be possible to kill him using Flask of Petrification to negate damage of EVERY SINGLE DOOM. Downsides with that tactic are of course ridiculous cost, inability to manually remove flask effect (ie you will be stunned full minute everytime you use that flask, unless talents affect that duration) and the fact that even with four 22 slot bags you can have maximum of 520 of those in inventory (minus the space occupied by repair bots to keep gear usable) which results in about 130 minutes of non-stunned/immune in which you must kill Loatheb or you'll die.

Did you account for a DS every 5 minutes instead of the Flask?
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Postby mazater » Wed Dec 10, 2008 7:46 am

+ Divine Protection & Sacred Shield combo to, probably, get you trough one Doom every 5 minutes.
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Postby Xequecal » Wed Dec 10, 2008 8:03 am

IMHO if you're going to try this you're much better off with 31/40/0. Holy Shock will easily outperform Art of War for self-healing. Use a spellpower weapon to boost up Sacred Shield and HS.

I still think the numbers are too high to solo the 25-man one, but the 10-man one is probably soloable. Once gear gets somewhat better I can definitely see the 25-man being soloed. Remember, once you have enough HP you can just keep yourself below 35% health and take 70% damage from everything.
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Postby Torakka » Wed Dec 10, 2008 8:06 am

Elsie, no. That would give actually quite much more time to do it, since CD keeps running even when stunned. I also didn't take into account that first Doom comes about 2 minutes after fight start nor that it comes less frequently than every 15 seconds at the beginning. Inability to remove flask earlier might also fuck it up since while you avoid Dooms at T=0, T=15, T=30 and T=45 I think you would eat Doom at T=60 when flask wears off. Gimme moment and I make some model based on DS usage between flasks.
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Postby Torakka » Wed Dec 10, 2008 8:38 am

Inevitable Doom takes 10s to go off after it has been applied, so if Flask or DS is popped right before it is going of it also prevents next Doom from applying negating effectively two of them

Code: Select all
T=0   Doom applied
8   DS removes Doom
15   Immune to Doom
30   Doom applied
38   Flask removes Doom - no DPS
45   Immune to Doom
60   Immune to Doom
75   Immune to Doom
90   Immune to Doom
98   Flask fades - DPS time again
105   Doom applied
113   Flask removes Doom - no DPS
120   Immune to Doom
135   Immune to Doom
150   Immune to Doom
165   Immune to Doom
173   Flask fades - DPS time again
180   Doom applied
188   Flask removes Doom - no DPS
195   Immune to Doom
210   Immune to Doom
225   Immune to Doom
240   Immune to Doom
248   Flask fades - DPS time again - DS CD ready
255   Doom applied


As can be seen from that you need to use 3 Flasks per DS CD cycle and during that period there is total of 38s + 15s + 15s + 7s = 75 secods DPS time. So if we ignore the fact that Doom comes less frequently in the start (since some of that DPS time is going to go to healing damage taken from Deathbloom I think) inventory 510 flasks (2 inventory slots for repair bots) will buy 75s X 510 / 3 = 12750s = 212.5 minutes to kill DPS Loatheb's 20,220,250 HP. That is about 1.6k avarage DPS.
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Postby Elsie » Wed Dec 10, 2008 9:29 am

Torakka wrote:Inevitable Doom takes 10s to go off after it has been applied, so if Flask or DS is popped right before it is going of it also prevents next Doom from applying negating effectively two of them

Code: Select all
T=0   Doom applied
8   DS removes Doom
15   Immune to Doom
30   Doom applied
38   Flask removes Doom - no DPS
45   Immune to Doom
60   Immune to Doom
75   Immune to Doom
90   Immune to Doom
98   Flask fades - DPS time again
105   Doom applied
113   Flask removes Doom - no DPS
120   Immune to Doom
135   Immune to Doom
150   Immune to Doom
165   Immune to Doom
173   Flask fades - DPS time again
180   Doom applied
188   Flask removes Doom - no DPS
195   Immune to Doom
210   Immune to Doom
225   Immune to Doom
240   Immune to Doom
248   Flask fades - DPS time again - DS CD ready
255   Doom applied


As can be seen from that you need to use 3 Flasks per DS CD cycle and during that period there is total of 38s + 15s + 15s + 7s = 75 secods DPS time. So if we ignore the fact that Doom comes less frequently in the start (since some of that DPS time is going to go to healing damage taken from Deathbloom I think) inventory 510 flasks (2 inventory slots for repair bots) will buy 75s X 510 / 3 = 12750s = 212.5 minutes to kill DPS Loatheb's 20,220,250 HP. That is about 1.6k avarage DPS.


Hmm, and then we can effectively twist in Sacred Shield / Divine Protection to effectively negate another with herbalism to negate the damage taken? Also, you now need to calculate in LOH. If you're taking 4000 per 10s, with 24001 HP, you can survive 6 dooms or 60s (realistically, 57 with perfect timing to hit the second healing window). So every 20 minutes you can survive 60 seconds?

Actually, alchemy increases flask duration by 25%. You're looking at a LOT more divine shields. At this point, you don't even lose much going improved LOH.

Pretty sure DPS will be under 1.3k by that point, no?
Last edited by Elsie on Wed Dec 10, 2008 10:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby fuzzygeek » Wed Dec 10, 2008 9:48 am

There's also a 5 minute enrage, if I recall correctly.

Edit: apparently enrage timer is gone. I wonder why they bothered with the no-spore achievement then?
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Postby PsiVen » Wed Dec 10, 2008 5:07 pm

I'm quite certain that Loatheb never had an enrage timer, else he wouldn't have been 5-manned. Inevitable Doom is a soft enrage, which at 60 was impossible to survive by a certain point.
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Postby Xequecal » Wed Dec 10, 2008 5:50 pm

PsiVen wrote:I'm quite certain that Loatheb never had an enrage timer, else he wouldn't have been 5-manned. Inevitable Doom is a soft enrage, which at 60 was impossible to survive by a certain point.


At 60 he set a 60-second cooldown on all healing spells. You could beat him by stacking on abilities that didn't count as heal spells but healed anyway, mainly Vamp Touch, JoLight, Healing Stream, etc.
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Postby knaughty » Wed Dec 10, 2008 5:57 pm

fuzzygeek wrote:There's also a 5 minute enrage, if I recall correctly.

Edit: apparently enrage timer is gone. I wonder why they bothered with the no-spore achievement then?

We tried the no-spore achievement and failed because one wandered into melee range and died to HotR/DS/etc.
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Postby majiben » Wed Dec 10, 2008 6:55 pm

Knaughty wrote:
fuzzygeek wrote:There's also a 5 minute enrage, if I recall correctly.

Edit: apparently enrage timer is gone. I wonder why they bothered with the no-spore achievement then?
We tried the no-spore achievement and failed because one wandered into melee range and died to HotR/DS/etc.
I was thinking about that and is there a good spot to move him so that the spores never die to the tank's AoE (or you know use a different tank :-X ).
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Postby Elsie » Thu Dec 11, 2008 9:52 am

Majiben wrote:
Knaughty wrote:
fuzzygeek wrote:There's also a 5 minute enrage, if I recall correctly.

Edit: apparently enrage timer is gone. I wonder why they bothered with the no-spore achievement then?
We tried the no-spore achievement and failed because one wandered into melee range and died to HotR/DS/etc.
I was thinking about that and is there a good spot to move him so that the spores never die to the tank's AoE (or you know use a different tank :-X ).

You shouldn't really have to use consecrate to hold threat at the moment. Even without certain features, Rogues and hunters can buff a paladin's TPS to silly levels. I've never seen someone use Hand of Salvation on anything yet, either.
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