Heroic's and 10 Man's in WOTLK a Joke?

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Postby Mortehl » Tue Nov 18, 2008 10:04 pm

Blizzard has stated its intent to release emblems of valor through -harder- heroic dungeons. There were only 12 released with wrath and there is intent to release much more content.
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Postby PsiVen » Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:39 am

Andryana wrote:Just remember how hard it was for a tank to start heroics if you weren't on a guild off-tanking kara or something, some heroics were ridiculously hard before most of the badge gear was introduced, just prevents the "sorry you don't have 30k to tank heroic Utgarde crap" from happening this time.


Ridiculously hard is fun. That's kinda the point.
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Postby Bregor » Wed Nov 19, 2008 1:52 am

PsiVen wrote:Ridiculously hard is fun. That's kinda the point.

If you have a reliable group, yes. But if you have to PUG and it gets to the point where you need raiding gear to be accepted to a PUG then Blizzard missed the mark (IMO).
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Postby Io.Draco » Wed Nov 19, 2008 2:53 am

Sigh

I leveled by BE pala in 21 days to 70 , when heroics where hard to extreme , and I still tanked heroics with NP finding a group for em
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Postby Tekkel » Wed Nov 19, 2008 2:55 am

So far I've tanked 1 heroic with a mix of BT/SWP gear and blues to get as close to defense cap as possible atm. I think we have it alot easier then the healers right now. I've got myself a dedicated priest at the same gearlevel and he runs oom alot now. Says the regen is so low he needs to watch his mana bar alot.

Some mobs seem to have a fair bit of aoe hitting for 2-4k on the party. I use my shield wall and loh alot on that kind of stuff atm. But yeh what you read about a healer having to let someone die in order to prevent a wipe is what i've experciened as well. It will get better once we gear up more but I don't find the places a total walkover.

Sure if you get like 1 castermob and the others melee you can just aoe tank but having 2 aoe castermobs loose at the same time decimates the health in your party rather quickly if you lack interrupts.
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Postby 2ndNin » Wed Nov 19, 2008 3:06 am

I tanked heroics in D3 gear or worse in TBC, you didn't need T5 gear or better to do them, you needed a Pug willing to listen, follow marks and control targets (1-2 cc per pull, so 1 free dps slot for a non-cc class). What you did need T5+ for basically (though thats not true as T4 / Kara gear could easily do it as well) was AoE pulling, sure you couldn't do the 6/2/9 pulls at the start of SH in that gear (3/3/2/5/4 was possible easily) but it wasn't impossible, it just needed a tank and healer on the ball.

The new heroics I haven't seen, but they should be hard, though to be honest the way the dungeons seem to drop gear (loot lists of 1-2 items it seems on most bosses?) Heroics are not really heroics but "extended gear list" options a lot more like Magister's terrace (where the two instance loot lists are completely separate). Personally I hope its not, I want to see the progression as it should be similar to like TBC

Dungeons -> Early Heroics -> Early Naxx10 -> Late Heroics / Early Naxx25 -> Late Naxx10 -> 10 Mans / Sapherion / Kel'thuzad / Late Naxx 25 -> Sapherion / Kel'thuzad 25

ie: a nice interleaved approach to content, the 10 mans and 5 mans being interleaved but still with a progression to them, shouldn't be a simple Dungeons -> Heroics -> Naxx, Heroics should be hard.
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Postby morespam » Wed Nov 19, 2008 3:17 am

I think normal dungeons should be kept at a BC level (maybe just a bit easier and made a bit shorter) and heroics should be the same difficultly as BC heroics.

If casual players want to do a dungeon they can do it on normal mode, for people who want to play a harder more challenging game they can do the dungeon on heroic.

I think the same should extend to 10/25 mans... 10s are for casual players and are at Kara level (again maybe a little easier) and 25 are for players who want more of a challenge and are at about normal BC 25 man levels.

Progression wise normal dungeons should gear you for 10 man raids and heroic dungeons should gear you for 25 mans

This way both sets of player get to see the content and both sets of players are happy.

The problem comes from casual players wanting the gear and rewards that the players that do the harder content get, this just makes no sense.

I don't have a problem with "casual" players or players that don't want to "work" in wow they just want to have fun and socialize with their friends and do some content. But why should this impede the game for players who want a challenge.

I think the hardcore players / players who like a game that is very hard to beat get a bad wrap, when in fact its the casuals being the ones that are causing the problems.

Please Blizzard put "I'm Too Young To Die" and "Nightmare" difficulty levels in your game and let us chose :P

I leave you with this analogy.

Bob Smith plays golf on the weekend with his friends, he enjoys it and has fun.

Tiger Woods plays golf as well.

Why does Tiger woods get paid 10Million dollars for playing golf and not Bob Smith..... now that is just NOT FAIR!!!!
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Postby Katamai » Wed Nov 19, 2008 3:18 am

You went there in T6 gear and you're "shocked" to see it's easy? Wow... what a shocker. You do know 5 mans are entry level content designed to be completed in quest greens/blues and heroics are designed for blues?

Go try Ahn'kahet or whatever it's called, get raped by Insanity and then come tell me all heroics are easy ;)
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Postby morespam » Wed Nov 19, 2008 3:21 am

Io.Draco I agree, I leveled my pally in BC from scratch and had no problem progressing from quest->dungeons->heroics.

Did it all by my self and with PUGs, you just have to be smart and know what you are doing and what you can handle.
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Postby Io.Draco » Wed Nov 19, 2008 3:21 am

Forget that

Go occulus then tell its easy!
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Postby Bregor » Wed Nov 19, 2008 3:23 am

2ndNin wrote:I tanked heroics in D3 gear or worse in TBC, you didn't need T5 gear or better to do them, you needed a Pug willing to listen, follow marks and control targets (1-2 cc per pull, so 1 free dps slot for a non-cc class). What you did need T5+ for basically (though thats not true as T4 / Kara gear could easily do it as well) was AoE pulling, sure you couldn't do the 6/2/9 pulls at the start of SH in that gear (3/3/2/5/4 was possible easily) but it wasn't impossible, it just needed a tank and healer on the ball.

The problem with "hard" heroics wasn't really a problem at the beginning of TBC when everyone was running around in blues. I specced prot at 70 after leveling as holy and just couldn't stand the prospect of healing another badge of warrior "martyrs" who specced prot for the sake of the raid while they'd rather be arms or fury. (You know the type; the x/x/15 type warrior tanks of vanilla WoW who demanded priority on dps plate as well since that was their real spec. But I digress.) I earned my wing as a tank first in normal 70 instances and then in heroics, first with D3 gear, and it worked.

However, the perceived difficulty led to some people setting in a mindset that you need an extremely well geared tank to do a heroic. (My favorite: green geared dps alts going "LF tank heroic; need epic gear".) If early WotLK heroics would be as hard as early TBC heroics a lot of people who have to rely on PUGs would get screwed.

That said, I too hope for more challenging heroics to be released in future patches.
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Postby Bregor » Wed Nov 19, 2008 3:28 am

morespam wrote:I leave you with this analogy.

Bob Smith plays golf on the weekend with his friends, he enjoys it and has fun.

Tiger Woods plays golf as well.

Why does Tiger woods get paid 10Million dollars for playing golf and not Bob Smith..... now that is just NOT FAIR!!!!

That analogy misses the mark but quite a bit. Bob Smith and Tiger Woods play on the same golf course, don't they? Tiger Woods get buckets of money for playing golf because he plays competitively and is the best. If you want to get money playing WoW, play competitively and get some advertisement deals. ;)
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Postby ulushnar » Wed Nov 19, 2008 3:32 am

Bregor wrote:
morespam wrote:I leave you with this analogy.

Bob Smith plays golf on the weekend with his friends, he enjoys it and has fun.

Tiger Woods plays golf as well.

Why does Tiger woods get paid 10Million dollars for playing golf and not Bob Smith..... now that is just NOT FAIR!!!!

That analogy misses the mark but quite a bit. Bob Smith and Tiger Woods play on the same golf course, don't they? Tiger Woods get buckets of money for playing golf because he plays competitively and is the best. If you want to get money playing WoW, play competitively and get some advertisement deals. ;)


Except the money in this analogy is epix.
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Postby Bregor » Wed Nov 19, 2008 3:52 am

Ulushnar wrote:
Bregor wrote:
morespam wrote:I leave you with this analogy.

Bob Smith plays golf on the weekend with his friends, he enjoys it and has fun.

Tiger Woods plays golf as well.

Why does Tiger woods get paid 10Million dollars for playing golf and not Bob Smith..... now that is just NOT FAIR!!!!

That analogy misses the mark but quite a bit. Bob Smith and Tiger Woods play on the same golf course, don't they? Tiger Woods get buckets of money for playing golf because he plays competitively and is the best. If you want to get money playing WoW, play competitively and get some advertisement deals. ;)


Except the money in this analogy is epix.

The problem with the analogy is that Tiger Woods does not get money because he plays better than Bob Smith. Tiger Woods gets money because he is a professional golfer and plays better than his competition. However, there are no professional WoW players. The correct analogy is Bob Smith and James Johnson both playing golf in their free time. But James is the better golfer, so he can complete more courses than Bob in the same time and for the same membership fee, has a shot at winning some minor prices in club competitions or can hit the club house earlier and has more time to score with the ladies*. (Or in WoW terms, run more instances, get special achievement rewards and gets more epics.)
Still both see the same content.

*If you find that sexist/offensive replace it with socializing to improve his business contacts playing in the same club. ;)
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Postby 2ndNin » Wed Nov 19, 2008 4:00 am

No its not, the epics in that is that Tiger Woods can afford the latest Titanium Carbon Fibre Elastic armour plated Five Iron and the uber spectracle long distance sight of extreme pointy ness, while Mr casual plays with the iron 5 Iron "the widowmaker".

In TBC entry level heroics weren't hard, they required though (those robots in Mech, with the stunning fist, yeah they hurt, now I pull them + other packs, but my health in a heroic doubled from 10k to 20k). The harder heroics required CC till you over geared them, and they were set that T5 was the point basically that you overgeared them and they became easy. I don't think some of the fights will be easy, even Utgarde Keep can be harsh (Shadow Smash AoE, + roar close together + silence... pain) if done wrongly, the old kingdom looks like its going to be a pain (I aoe tanked it, omfg thank god for T6 healer + LoH, 2 shadow guys + a third at the end is a pain). The instances look like they could be a real challenge, and I will find out tonight hopefully.

The point is though, that Heroics are likely easy to us because we are still hitting them in gear thats overpowered, our threat stats are still on gear we typically use (T6) rather than the defensive ones the new gear has on it for now. Sure we will get upgrades, but you are basically not a 10k 12k armour paladin hitting mech, but a 12k 14k armour equivalent one hitting it, and thats a major difference, that 2k health difference in heroics went from "we need cc on this pull" to "smash greater heal button lots mr healer plz", there is simply that tipping point of difficulty in games like this, and we are likely on the high end of that tipping point.
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