[10H] Siegecrafter Blackfuse (Guide)

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Re: [10H] Siegecrafter Blackfuse (Guide)

Postby Ulrik » Mon Nov 25, 2013 3:05 pm

I'm having no problems with DBM timers. I think the audio loops you are experiencing are the default settings. Nearly everything is turned on and the audio count is trying to do Electrostatic Bolt, Shredder Spawn, Blades, etc. using both the guy and gal voices for different things. I just turned everything off except a few time bars to get rid of the noise.
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Re: [10H] Siegecrafter Blackfuse (Guide)

Postby Schroom » Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:41 am

@ Ulrik. that's exactly what I did ^^ I turned everything off except the Electrostatic Bolt timer an countdown. but it still kept going on.

well after 5 hours into progression I know my times, using /stopwatch.

who needs DBM anyway? :P

I expect a kill in 2, maybe 3 weeks.
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Re: [10H] Siegecrafter Blackfuse (Guide)

Postby Schroom » Tue Dec 03, 2013 2:12 am

the recent DBM update fixed my timer problem. yay
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Re: [10H] Siegecrafter Blackfuse (Guide)

Postby Chamallow » Fri Dec 20, 2013 8:01 pm

Would gemming/reforging crit be a bad idea? Say go down to 35% haste and have something like 20% crit unbuffed? Or would that be fucktarded?
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Re: [10H] Siegecrafter Blackfuse (Guide)

Postby Kai » Sat Dec 21, 2013 2:37 am

now that I saw this popping up again, useful thing for people working on this:

the spawn location of the first missile turret of each wave is determined by player position. the encounter picks a random player on the platform, draws a line from the middle through the player to the wall and drops the first turret there. I am fairly sure it's only healers and range dps, but it might be melee dps/tanks as well.

if you do the 10 men strat of killing mines on the belt whenever possible, this becomes very valuable for belt 2+3 when you have the overpowered laser stuff on the ground. if you spawn the turrets on the other side of the room, that means the waves are huge when they reach you. if you spawn them on your side of the room, it's much easier to dodge.
killing the overpowered turrets is also much more convenient if they spawn right in front of you, naturally.

so for example if your tank spot is at the 12 on a clock, have all range stand on 11, a couple of yards away from the middle. then the turrets will spawn roughly on 11,12,1 (as it always goes clockwise after the first and you determine the first that way). means tanks/melees only have to step a few yards to hit them.
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Re: [10H] Siegecrafter Blackfuse (Guide)

Postby Xfighter » Sat Dec 21, 2013 5:00 pm

We've had the tank who is killing the add be picked as a target before, as I'm fairly certain he was the only one that far out of position at the time. It's a pretty rare thing, but does tend to happen the odd time. Only ever really noticed it on the 3rd add, as with our strategy that's the more awkward one positioning wise.



And to the crit question: The only time I've noticed crit making a big difference was on the add being killed with 3 stacks (1 & 4) for us, but with CDs being available for them, it's never really been much of a bothersome overall. I'd prefer the haste for the EF ticks+constant damage, as even with going up to 15-20%, it's still playing for the RNG on a few select moves during a VERY small window (death from above +% dmg) to make a difference.



Something that wasn't suggested here but we opted to doing: instead of taking 3 - 2 - 4 - 6 and doing the first add with 3 & 4 stacks solo, we opted to the first tank doing 3, then getting the 4th, but instead of doing the add away from the boss, we kept him ontop of him, with both tanks helping kill it during death from above, as it tended to consistently net only 3 overloads, instead of the constant 4 we were getting while killing it solo (since all CDs were blown on first one)



Also, our kill attempt ended up having our second tank die @ stack 4 (was a 540 OS third fill-in tank) on the second set, and we managed to let me go up to 5, solo the add 5 away, and then go up to 6 or 7, kill the 6th add, and then burn the boss down before needing to worry about the next one. So don't call for a wipe if stacks are lost from a death - as long as it happens before the other tank loses his stack (before stack 5 on 2nd tank)
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Re: [10H] Siegecrafter Blackfuse (Guide)

Postby Schroom » Mon Jan 20, 2014 1:18 am

Hi guys, after 8 weeks of progression break, and recruiting (which sucks mid content -.-) we finally started working on this again and picked up right where we left.

how do you guys kill the 4rd add as a paladin? we have NO patches and NO saw blades when the 4rd add is up. so I'm in a naked room running against a wall. I don't see how I could kill it...

we play 3-2-4-6 I'm tank 1.

we never let mines spawn if possible.
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Re: [10H] Siegecrafter Blackfuse (Guide)

Postby Winkle » Mon Jan 20, 2014 4:50 am

I don't think i quite understand your tank sequence. Anyway here's what we do:


Tank 1 - 3 Stacks (kill 1st add)
Tank 1 - 5 stacks (kill 2nd add)
Tank 1 resets
Tank 2 - 5 stacks (kill 3rd add)
Tank 2 - 7 stacks (kill 4th add)

TBH we're still playing around with the fight so perhaps having the 2nd tank go to 7 stacks isn't ideal, however at 7 stacks the add should melt, regardless of swablades.

Also note that with the patch the sequence of overcharged weapons may benefit from being altered. Blizzard haven't stated exactly how much the mines HP is being nerfed, but perhaps it's enough to warrant spawning mines over lazer?

Code: Select all
Overcharging is done based on a priority system, which is as follows:

    Electromagnet
    Crawler Mines
    Missile Turret
    Laser Turret

The same weapon cannot become Overcharged twice in a row


Wave 1: Crawler Mines, Missile Turret, Laser Turret (kill mines, overcharged missile)
Wave 2: Crawler Mines, Missile Turret, Laser Turret (kill missle, overcharged mines)
Wave 3: Electromagnet, Missile Turret, Laser Turret (kill magnet, overcharged missile)
Wave 4: Crawler Mines, Missile Turret, Laser Turret (kill missile, overcharged mines)
Wave 5: Electromagnet, Crawler Mine, Missile Turret (kill magnet, overcharged missile)
Wave 6: Crawler Mines, Crawler Mines, Laser Turret (kill mines, overcharged mines)
Wave 7: Crawler Mine, Missile Turret, Laser Turret (kill mines, overcharged missile)
Wave 8: Electromagnet, Crawler Mines, Missile Turret (kill magnet, overcharged mines)
   
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Re: [10H] Siegecrafter Blackfuse (Guide)

Postby samsara » Mon Jan 20, 2014 4:57 am

don't know if it's a big difference from 25 to 10, we do it with 3,3,4,3,4,3.... ( it somehow overlaps a bit so that the 4th stack of the debuff on the first tank comes at the same time as the add or a second later, but this is not a big deal.

I'm the tank who tanks with 3 stacks but i don't have problems and nearly kill the add every time befor the 4th overload and when i slack and the 4th overload is comming Aura mastery works quite good :)

How to kill the add (on 25hc):

* about 5 sec before the add will jump in the air i use HA , so i can use it on every add which will come,
* for the 4th add i will use additionaly wings.
* use execution sentence about 2-3 secs before the addcast is finished, so you will get most of the ticks in the timewindow where the add is stunned on the ground.

you are right about that there is no fire or spinnning disks on the ground for the 4th add, as i wrote i pop HA and Wings which most of the time works, but just to be safe i place the add on a position on the ring where i know fire will spawn. so even if wings, ha and sometimes the kafa press wouldn't do it, the fire will do the rest and you can reduce raiddmg with Aura Mastery when overload is about to come (it allways comes a bit earlier than my timer is showing me (bigwigs) , about 1-3 secs)
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Re: [10H] Siegecrafter Blackfuse (Guide)

Postby Schroom » Mon Jan 20, 2014 5:27 am

Blizzard haven't stated exactly how much the mines HP is being nerfed, but perhaps it's enough to warrant spawning mines over lazer?


Our raid leader mentioned that the devs said it would be about 10% in an interview. so not worth really changing tactics.

also it's not comparable to 25M. you have LOTS less vengeance in 10m.

also Aura mastery won't do any good. it's range is onyl 40m. and most of the raid is over 40m away from me. it would only help myself and my healer.

after the 2nd add when the magnet goes off, we send everybody except healers and tanks up on the Belt, so they're not affected by the magnet. (except our DK who has a debuff, but AM is strong here.)

we play like the OP suggested.

T1: 3 -> add -> 4 -> add
T2 2 -> 6 -> add

which puts me with 3 stacks on the 4th add, with no patches or sawblades (and a running 2nd magnet) as I always do 2 adds in a row, I can't HA every add. I basically use Avenging Wrath in the first add. EF myself 2 seconds before the mob starts to cast his "Death from above" and use ES with both buffs active the time you describe here. all was said in this thread before exactly like this ...

so the second add I got 4 stacks and use HA instead of AW, rest stays the same.

but as I said, we reached the 4rd add for the first time yesterday, and with only 3 stacks, and no patches or sawblades, I don't see how I could kill it. we had 6 overloads, then the raid just died.

the only idea I got is to swap tanks. so our warrior does my job, and most add duty while I do more boss and stack duty. as warriors do OP DPS that should be an option. but implies us relearning the fight from a different perspective. so IF there is another way and anyone got any ideas, they are welcome.
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Re: [10H] Siegecrafter Blackfuse (Guide)

Postby Winkle » Mon Jan 20, 2014 5:58 am

Ok so possible alternatives:

T1 3 add - 5 add - 3 - 6 add
T2 2 - 5 add - 7 add

i.e let tank 2 do the 2nd add with 7 stacks.

Or if that's to risky try tanking the add on the boss, then you have 2 tanks with the buff.
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Re: [10H] Siegecrafter Blackfuse (Guide)

Postby Schroom » Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:33 am

Or if that's to risky try tanking the add on the boss, then you have 2 tanks with the buff.


Oh I told this to my raidleader, as we also would have both healers close to the boss, instead of only one. but he refused, as more people close to the boss -> more potential sawblades / fire close to the camp -> more potential fails.

I don't really get this argument, but well....

T1 3 add - 5 add - 3 - 6 add
T2 2 - 5 add - 7 add


So you say: 3-2-5-5-3-7-6 ? right?

sorry but I don't get it. every 3 stacks an add spawns. how could I do 5 when the add spawns shortly after I get my 4th stack. stacks are 15 seconds apart. so I don't see how ignoring the add for 15 seconds just to gain more stacks would benefit us?

same with
let tank 2 do 2nd add with 7s tacks
how can tank 2 get 7 stacks when add 2 spawns o.O
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Re: [10H] Siegecrafter Blackfuse (Guide)

Postby Winkle » Mon Jan 20, 2014 7:22 am

Well i do the 2nd add with 5 stacks so that's defiitely possible. The add spawns about 5 seconds before the 5th stack is applied, but i haven't had a problem picking him up, he takes 3-4 second to even get half way across the room.

I don't really understand your notation for stacks, it's just a random list of numbers to me.
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Re: [10H] Siegecrafter Blackfuse (Guide)

Postby Schroom » Mon Jan 20, 2014 8:49 am

Winkle wrote:The add spawns about 5 seconds before the 5th stack is applied.

sorry but I guess we play different encounters then? the add spawns at the exact same time as stack no3 is applied in our raid... does it depend on the belt group maybe?

Winkle wrote:I don't really understand your notation for stacks, it's just a random list of numbers to me.


3-2-4-6 means: tank 1 takes 3 stacks. then tank 2 takes 2 then tank 1 goes up to 4 then tank 2 goes up to 6

it's not my notation btw. it has been used before in this thread, so I followed it :>

edit: I just reread my post and noticed it could be interpreted offensively which it isn't supposed to be. so no offense man ^^
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Re: [10H] Siegecrafter Blackfuse (Guide)

Postby Winkle » Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:09 am

It's alright schroom, i take no offensive from your Siegecrafter tactics :D

Anyway, since i'm progressing on it too it helps to discuss these things.

I agree the add spawns as soon as you reach 3 stacks of debuff, however the 2nd add appears to spawn between the applications of the 6th and 7th debuff, i take the 2nd add with 5 stacks of the debuff anyway.

Anyway back to orginal problem, currently you get to the 4th add and you only have 3 stacks and no external damage source to help you. My suggestion would be to attempt to alter your order to allow the 2nd tank to take the 4th add, this would require he go to 7 or 8 stacks, which may kill.

Alterntives include getting a 4th overload (more viable come the nerf this week, although i dodn't find the occasional 4th life threatening anyway, especially if you prepare) or tanking the add in the group.
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Re: [10H] Siegecrafter Blackfuse (Guide)

Postby Winkle » Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:52 am

I just check on warcraft logs.

Electrostatic charge gets applied instantly and then every 17 seconds.
Automated shredder spawns after 40s and then oncer per minute.

The result is that the 2nd automated shredder spawns 2 seconds before the 7th elextrostatic charge is cast.

Also it means that the 4th add can be picked up by the 2nd tank with 6 stacks of debuff.
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Re: [10H] Siegecrafter Blackfuse (Guide)

Postby Xfighter » Mon Jan 20, 2014 11:04 am

We do the exact same as you Schroom in terms of tanks/stacks, and I'm in your role. For add 4 with 3 stacks, its important to ensure you're getting to him before he links to the boss (this has me tanking it between the middle of the room and its spawn point or thereabouts). I ensure AW+HA are available, EF refresh with ES etc, and depending on crits before DFA happens, I make a judgement call on if I need to use my second potion or not for when he lands (it does tend to help out).


The biggest thing with it though, is if you're going to be a bit short on the damage to taunt for stack #4, you need to make sure you head over and taunt anyways. I coordinate with my co-tank if I'm going to be short as I head to taunt, and he'll come over and help finish off my add. Typically speaking when I'm short on it, it's at around 10-20% so him with 2 stacks and me with 4 is enough to finish it off (might get overload #4 this way - can't really remember.)




Only thing we do differently is we tank add #2 & #5 on the boss, with both tanks assigned with killing it off (it always gets nearly globaled when it lands or shortly after) as during progression I wasn't able to be consistent with getting this add dead before the 4th overload (add #2) by myself and we almost always lost people to it. Switching to both tanks on them (2&5) lost some boss DPS but meant less raid deaths from 4th overloads.


Your raid leaders argument about saw blades and fire makes no sense as tanks aren't valid options for blades or fire, and having both healers in the clump means deaths are less likely as 2 healers covering blade/fire/overload damage instead of 1 allows for a greater margin of error. The only risky bit is the DFA in melee, but as long as tanks are far enough from range, and the melee are smart, it generally is ignorable. (when these adds are flying up with our positioning we generally have to dodge missle lines in melee anyways)


You should try to talk to him about it outside raid, as it might be a easy solution to the problems you guys are having.
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Re: [10H] Siegecrafter Blackfuse (Guide)

Postby Schroom » Tue Jan 21, 2014 2:14 am

yes I know, I would play it like this immediately, and I also only see benefits of tanking those adds on the Boss.

by more fire/sawbaldes btw he means the second healer. the way we play now, I tank the add away from the camp and have our 2nd healer next to me. so tanking the add on the Boss means that also our second healer is close to the camp, and could be targeted by fire/sawblades giving the rest more ways to fail/whipe. (and it is not a healing problem we whipe on here most times, but a problem of DPS getting on the belt to slow, spawning Blades in the Tanks path and walking over patches, ad so on. but we have a fix here now) so one healer in the front is actually fine, because if everything goes as planed he only has to heal himself , Bosstank and 1 MeleePS.

Winkle wrote: this would require he go to 7 or 8 stacks


yeah unfortunatly this will kill him. 6 stacks is max. he's out of Cooldowns then and also both HoSacs (from me and from our HPala) are out by then


Winkle wrote:Also it means that the 4th add can be picked up by the 2nd tank with 6 stacks of debuff.


mh what stack rotation do you have in mind here? sounds intreging.

XFighter. usualy I would be planed in for Add No 5 as well with 4 stacks. so blowing both Cooldowns (HA+AW) on the 4rd add might be counterproductive, as even with patches/baldes and 4 stacks I can't kill the thing wihtout Cooldowns.


also we don't want to apply a tactic that implies "luck" or "judgement calls" everytime we do the fight. we want something that's guaranteed to work all the time if no one fucks up :P


btw I even work haste/armor elixiers and hastefood.
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Re: [10H] Siegecrafter Blackfuse (Guide)

Postby Winkle » Tue Jan 21, 2014 5:30 am

Schroom wrote:
Winkle wrote:Also it means that the 4th add can be picked up by the 2nd tank with 6 stacks of debuff.


mh what stack rotation do you have in mind here? sounds intreging.


Image
1st two columns is the timer for the electrostatic charge application, 2nd two columns are the shredder spawns. Last two columns indicate which tank will be killing the shredder and the stacks they will have.

As you can see shredder 2 spawns at 100 seconds, the 7th stack of charge is applied at 102 seconds, so i get my 5th stack then kill shredder 2. This allows Tank 2 to kill both the 3rd and 4th shredders.
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Re: [10H] Siegecrafter Blackfuse (Guide)

Postby Schroom » Tue Jan 21, 2014 6:04 am

thanks, I'll post it in my guild forum and see what happens.
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Re: [10H] Siegecrafter Blackfuse (Guide)

Postby Xfighter » Tue Jan 21, 2014 12:22 pm

I can't help but think if a single person being in range of the "camp" and thus being one additional saw blade target is enough to potentially mess you guys up that badly - that maybe your positioning could use work? We found while progressing that having even just one person in the wrong spot or moving too slowly could cause some real headaches. Early in progression we hammered it in peoples heads to never cross over the path that tanks take (predefined and consistent once we found exact spots), and to not put blades in front of where the range would be moving during fire.

I also aim to BoP our druid healer during fire+magnets, since she seemed to always eat them - if saw blades are a issue there, maybe a bop may help a bit?




Just seems unreasonable to state one healers blades in the group is enough to throw everything off tilt lol.
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Re: [10H] Siegecrafter Blackfuse (Guide)

Postby Schroom » Wed Jan 22, 2014 3:42 am

if saw blades are a issue there, maybe a bop may help a bit?


positioning is okay it's more wrong calls that mess up.

as I said, when the magnet starts everyone, except both healers, both tanks and our Frost DK (has debuff) go on the belt. so they are safe.

before leaving our rogue puts a smokebomb on the Boss, so that one sawblades won't spawn.

I BoP our schaman healer allready, bubble myself and our holypally bubbles as well.

nonetheless the phase is longer than 10 seconds (BoP) and we have 95% of our whipes in exactly that phase. it gets better but still. usually our heal pally and/or our warrior (as a result) dies. mostly for wrong calls how to dodge (running left instead of right) sawblades put into the tank path, taking to many stacks from the firepatch and so on.

our warriortank is a drill sergeant IRL so yeah. he also tried to HAMMER it into their skulls. *gg*

well it gets better, and we see the 4rd add more often now, (which is why I posted here, as I noticed that with our strat the add won't die)


but as I said, I perfectly agree, I also don't understand at all why we just can't tank it on top of the boss. I would prefer it, and I think it even helps having two healers in the camp than one.

well we are going with our warrior doing Add No3 with 6 stacks, getting a 7th stack and do add no 4. (we changed our CD rotation, "et voila")
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Re: [10H] Siegecrafter Blackfuse (Guide)

Postby Xfighter » Wed Jan 22, 2014 9:32 am

Hope the new stack rotation works for you guys :). I'm interested in seeing how the fight looks like with the hotfixes but it'll be 2 weeks before I get to see them lol. Let us know how the stacks go for you guys, and here's to getting to Klaxxi which feels like actual progression and not a wall ^_^
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Re: [10H] Siegecrafter Blackfuse (Guide)

Postby Schroom » Thu Jan 23, 2014 3:14 am

the nerf feels huge.

while being at ~45-50% where most wipes occoured, even with only 30 minutes of progression yesterday after reset (and 11 Bosses to farm previously) we got to about 25-30% most of the time. so it looks like if we might actually get to killrange today (4h of progression inc)

atm it works ok.
Code: Select all
T1: 3 add 4 add          2 -    5 add
T2  2 -          6 add - 7 add  -


is where we are now with ~25% BossHP remaining.

I'll keep you informed.

Klaxxi is more step by step progression, as it is one boss at a time progression, which might feel less draining I think (we also took a look at them for ~2 hours once before stopping progression end of November 'til now)
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Re: [10H] Siegecrafter Blackfuse (Guide)

Postby Kai » Thu Jan 23, 2014 3:47 pm

klaxxi was a good deal easier on 10 men then pre-nerf siegecrafter for us. i'd say thok is tougher then klaxxi as well. it's really just learning where to run when and that's it.
if you get siegecrafter to 25-30%, you can kill it. assuming you are killing mines on the belt whenever they are up, you survived the worst part of the fight then, empowered laser followed by empowered magnet. it only gets easier from there, just need everyone to focus for 5 min and it's done.
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