Paladin tanking specs for MoP

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Re: Paladin tanking specs for MoP

Postby Kihra » Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:47 am

After finally doing some raid testing, I'm leaning towards:

15 - Pursuit of Justice. I like the constant movement speed boost.

30 - Fist of Justice. I don't think this needs much explanation.

45 - I don't know what to make of this tier. It seems like Holy paladins are also favoring Sacred Shield, and so if we have them in raid, it's a question of whose Sacred Shield is better, mine or theirs. I don't know if (or how well) SS scales with Vengeance, so I'm not sure if it ends up being better for prot or holy to apply the shield. If it's better for Holy, then I guess Eternal Flame is the next best option.

However in current beta builds (and I'm not sure if this is intentional), if you spec into Eternal Flame, it ends up being on the GCD. This is pretty unacceptable to me, since I need to be able to hit my emergency heal off the GCD, and if EF destroys the ability to do that, then I can't see why anyone would take it.

Even if that is just a bug and EF ends up off-GCD, I still dislike the maintenance of the HoT being effectively tied to a forced cast of WoG.

All in all, not sure what to make of this tier. I wish they would just let SS from multiple sources stack. I don't really get why they don't.

60 - Unbreakable Spirit by default, but the other two could be situationally useful depending on the fight.

75 - I personally think Holy Avenger is the best choice, since it's basically a guaranteed 15 seconds of full SoTR mitigation on a 2 minute CD. Sanctified Wrath is also very strong.

90 - Holy Prism is easily my favorite of the 90 talents. The spell effect from Light's Hammer is just too obnoxious in melee. It's seriously distracting in a raid setting. What I like about Holy Prism is how much damage it does when you have multiple enemy targets, since you can target yourself and hit all of your enemies. For example, on the Stone Guard, since I'm tanking two of them, Holy Prism hits for more than Execution Sentence, because I am hitting two enemies every time I use it to heal myself. Then on top of that I have the flexibility of using it to heal 5 targets instead. It's also not tied to a position the way Light's Hammer is, so I don't have to worry about it being wasted.
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Re: Paladin tanking specs for MoP

Postby theckhd » Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:26 pm

As far as I'm aware, there's nothing that doesn't scale with Vengeance. And both SS and EF scale roughly equivalently once you sum up the HoT portion and add the base heal (though, to be fair, SS+WoG is strictly superior to EF, at the cost of a GCD).

I pretty much agree with your choices. I lean towards SS at the L45 tier; the lack of stacking simply means that you and your paladin healers will have to coordinate which talents you each take. I don't think of EF as a maintenance buff so much as an added bonus when I WoG, simply because I don't think it's going to be worth the HP cost to maintain EF instead of saving it for an emergency heal. Also, EF is intended to be off-GCD, a blue confirmed it as a bug some time ago.

L75 will be a more interesting choice now, but I still think HA is the best choice. It didn't even need the damage buff it received to be attractive, in my mind. Sanctified Wrath was the best choice for DPS by far, but weaker for survivability, which is probably what prompted the new +healing bonus. But 18-21 seconds of SotR uptime every 2 minutes is hard to beat for survival. Note that it's not strictly guaranteed uptime unless you're hit/exp capped (which may be pretty common, admittedly).

Note that the 2-target Holy Prism DPS is misleading. On a single target (and casting offensively), Execution Sentence is nearly twice the DPS because of opportunity cost (pushing back other fillers). Holy Prism's self-cast version does less damage by about 25%, so even against 2 targets, ES should be more overall damage. It's only by 3 targets that HPr has any chance of pulling ahead in total damage done.

Also don't forget that ES can be self-cast, which makes it a dual-purpose cooldown. You can use it for DPS during the burn phase, but keep it in reserve for extra healing throughput in a dangerous phase. The fact that it does either a lot of damage or a lot of healing makes it rather versatile.
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Re: Paladin tanking specs for MoP

Postby KysenMurrin » Thu Aug 09, 2012 12:18 am

Is there still a 0.25 modifier on healing threat?
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Re: Paladin tanking specs for MoP

Postby daishan » Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:04 am

I thought they removed the healing threat reductions at the start of cata?
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Re: Paladin tanking specs for MoP

Postby KysenMurrin » Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:06 am

I wasn't sure I remembered right or if it stuck, that's why I ask.
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Re: Paladin tanking specs for MoP

Postby daishan » Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:13 am

Ye I'm not certain either, but I'm fairly sure they removed 90% of the threat modifiers when cata hit.
On a related note I think over healing produces zero threat, and absorbs (priest bubbles ect) produce all there threat when they land even if the person is on max hp and takes no dmg.
Ofc that could be me living in dream land :roll:
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Re: Paladin tanking specs for MoP

Postby Levantine » Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:22 am

Sounds about right. Mobs do like to wail on my priest if I'm slow to preshield and do it in combat.
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Re: Paladin tanking specs for MoP

Postby Kihra » Thu Aug 09, 2012 10:17 am

theckhd wrote:L75 will be a more interesting choice now, but I still think HA is the best choice. It didn't even need the damage buff it received to be attractive, in my mind. Sanctified Wrath was the best choice for DPS by far, but weaker for survivability, which is probably what prompted the new +healing bonus. But 18-21 seconds of SotR uptime every 2 minutes is hard to beat for survival. Note that it's not strictly guaranteed uptime unless you're hit/exp capped (which may be pretty common, admittedly).


Yeah, this is true. It has yet to let me down though, so I'd be curious what the math eventually shows. I'm not even Hit/Exp capped and it has yet to fail me. Note that with most danger times you have a bit of wiggle room about when to initiate HA, so you can do things like wait til that GC proc happens and then kick it off. In other words you can at least bias the HoPo generation in favor of just being Hit capped if you set things up so that AS and Judgement are both available.

Assuming you begin with everything available and a GC proc, you can Judge, AS, CS, x, Judge, CS.

theckhd wrote:Note that the 2-target Holy Prism DPS is misleading. On a single target (and casting offensively), Execution Sentence is nearly twice the DPS because of opportunity cost (pushing back other fillers). Holy Prism's self-cast version does less damage by about 25%, so even against 2 targets, ES should be more overall damage. It's only by 3 targets that HPr has any chance of pulling ahead in total damage done.


I'm not sure I agree with this, but I could be thinking about it wrong.

If you run without SS (say because your holy pallies are maintaining it on you), then Holy Prism very naturally fits into gaps in your rotation where no other fillers are available. I am pretty sure that even if you use Holy Prism only twice in one minute on two targets, as long as you do this during natural gaps in the rotation, you would at least tie Execution Sentence for damage. I am making the assumption that 3x HP = 1 ES, and for the self-cast version, you only get 0.75 of an HP per cast.

Hitting two targets twice in one minute without pushing back fillers is worth 3x HP, which is = 1 ES. If you do have sufficient gaps to hit it three times in a minute (or even close to a minute), it would beat ES. Even if you take slightly longer than a minute to get three gaps in your rotation, that pushback over the course of an entire fight may not add up to an extra minute in fight length, and so another ES might not have been available anyway.

The other reason I prefer HP over ES is it is a 40yd ranged pulling tool on a 20 second cooldown. It helps compensate for the removal of the second taunt to pick up the extra ranged pulling tool.
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Re: Paladin tanking specs for MoP

Postby theckhd » Thu Aug 09, 2012 10:35 am

Regarding ES vs. HPr: The sims I ran were using ^WB>^SS>CS>J>(talent)>Cons>HW. I haven't run any without SS (and can't, at the moment - the FSM is undergoing some changes and doesn't work right now), so that would certainly lessen the opportunity cost.
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Re: Paladin tanking specs for MoP

Postby stevos » Thu Aug 09, 2012 10:49 am

I suspect i will end up with Speed of Light for teir 1.

Very few fights require tanks to move around all that often and when they do you generally don't want move too fast, for example kiting a mob around whilst melee nuke it.

Speed of Light is good for getting into position fast, such as on the pull or when mobs spawn mid fight.

Just depends on how often you need that burst of speed, if its more than every 45 secs then Long Arm of the Law would be better.
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Re: Paladin tanking specs for MoP

Postby Worldie » Thu Aug 09, 2012 11:04 am

After 5 years with it I think most of us simply can't live without PoJ :p
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Re: Paladin tanking specs for MoP

Postby stevos » Thu Aug 09, 2012 11:16 am

Worldie wrote:After 5 years with it I think most of us simply can't live without PoJ :p


Know the feeling, but loss of Crusader Aura will hit harder.

Just get a speed increasing feet enchant for static 8%, almost as good.

I have wanted a range closer since I first saw a warrior charge, now we have one sort of.
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Re: Paladin tanking specs for MoP

Postby KysenMurrin » Thu Aug 09, 2012 11:19 am

Crusader Aura is still in game as a passive effect, stevos. (Heart of the Crusader)
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Re: Paladin tanking specs for MoP

Postby daishan » Thu Aug 09, 2012 11:25 am

http://mop.wowhead.com/spell=32223 Heart of the Crusader is passive in MoP for all paladins :D

I think I'll be going Long Arm most of the time as it's a 45% speed boost for 3 sec effectively on a 6 sec cd, and 3 sec is long enough to get out of most of the fire in raids.
Though saying that I do think there will be plenty of times when PoJ and Speed of Light will get used instead.

edit: oops refresh before posting..
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Re: Paladin tanking specs for MoP

Postby stevos » Thu Aug 09, 2012 11:29 am

Seems i completely missed that.
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