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MoP Mastery Discussion

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Re: MoP Mastery Discussion

Postby danpaladin » Tue May 08, 2012 12:08 am

Ghostcrawler wrote this a few hours ago on the forums:

Ghostcrawler wrote:Bosses hardly ever attack slower than 1.5 second these days and there is no longer a boss swing timer debuff. We find that when bosses attack slower, they have to hit really hard to do the same DPS, which means tanks risk being two-shot. A Shield of the Righteous should be able to get two hits.

Even if that were not the case, the penalty is mostly on healer mana. Because Shield of the Righteous can't be up all the time, it can't be the case that a paladin will die without it.

The challenge with the current SotR design is that Prot paladins generate Holy Power pretty quickly, which means any 3 Holy Power ability will be used often. We don't want SotR to have 100% coverage, or it starts to feel more like Inquisition or the Hammer of the Righteous debuff and not like a short cooldown. We could slow down Holy Power generation, but we're reluctant to do that, because it feels good coming in quickly and coming from abilities like Judgment. Having Bastion of Glory buff Word of Glory so much is a way to encourage paladins to spend some of their Holy Power on Word of Glory once in awhile so that it all isn't funneling into a persistent Shield of the Righteous shield.


My first reaction was that I don't think bosses hardly ever attack slower than 1.5 seconds these days.

My second reaction was to the comment where he said, "Even if that were not the case, the penalty is mostly on healer mana. Because Shield of the Righteous can't be up all the time, it can't be the case that a paladin will die without it."
What does this even mean, really?

Lastly, I totally agree with his last paragraph. Looks like he has a good understanding of where the prot paladin is going in MoP, and that maybe they are more or less set on what the interplay between mastery, SotR and WoG is going to be.

Edit: Just caught what GC was saying about attack speed being no faster than 1.5 seconds. Here are the numbers posted from before on this thread:

Shannox: 1.8
Riplimb: 1.8
Beth'tilac: 2.4
Rhyolith: 1.8
Alysrazor: - (Has no melee swing)
Baleroc: 1.2
Majordomo Staghelm: 1.5
Ragnaros: 1.8

But these are after the 20% attack speed reduction. That no longer exists in MoP, so the 1.8s turn into 1.5s, meaning nearly all the bosses would fit exactly 2 swings into each SotR. Assuming this continues to be the trend, the worries we've had about needing addons for boss swing timers may have been unnecessary :D
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Re: MoP Mastery Discussion

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue May 08, 2012 12:26 am

Except they'll almost certainly bake in the debuff to the base enemy swing timers - they're removing the debuff because you could assume 100% uptime anyway. For all of Cata they've had to design bosses by saying "this is how fast it should swing, so we'll set it x faster to account for the debuff".
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Re: MoP Mastery Discussion

Postby Sagara » Tue May 08, 2012 12:32 am

I had the impression the point was missed, for some reason.

The current point of contention, as far as I could read is something like: "the buff has a duration greater than a single swing, but smaller than 2 swings, ergo, to optimise gameplay, we should try and squeeze two swings inside of every SotR, all other things remaining equal." So the point is more about swing times 1.5 > x > 3.

While I could understand his logic up to there, I got my hackles raised at the second point. Wherever the penalty is, if a penalty exist, it IS a problem. I don't think many thanks live with a "lol, healer's problem" attitude. One the one hand, we want to make our healer's job easier to improve the group's survivability, and on the other hand, unhappy healers find tanks from other classes, at least at the highest levels.

Further, this leads to a balance problem: do you plan around SotR blocking one hit, making the Paladin extremely powerful at high levels, or around two hits, making the average tankadin weaker than his peers? Or do you strike a balance in between? But where in between?

As far as I can think of (which ISN'T very far), the best approach is to have the buff duration = swing timer, or 2 * swing timer. That way, you can't cheese around the timer - you get one or two hits per mob, no matter what. But then, they can't play with swing timers like they did for Chimaeron...

But, on a more positive note, I'll agree with his concept of fast generation - more frequent and faster decision creates a more energetic dynamic. I'm less convinced by Bastion of Glory, but mostly because it feels tacked on. It can find its place by becoming a mid-term panic button, so I'm not too worried.
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Re: MoP Mastery Discussion

Postby benebarba » Tue May 08, 2012 5:45 am

KysenMurrin wrote:Except they'll almost certainly bake in the debuff to the base enemy swing timers - they're removing the debuff because you could assume 100% uptime anyway. For all of Cata they've had to design bosses by saying "this is how fast it should swing, so we'll set it x faster to account for the debuff".


I'm not actually sure I follow that logic. It actually sounds more like GC is describing a system where 1.5 will be the base attack speed, and not 1.8 in MOP.

Though an interesting aspect of this: does this mean it is entirely possible that our AM may suffer if a party member decides to slap an attack speed debuff on a boss/single mob?
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Re: MoP Mastery Discussion

Postby theckhd » Tue May 08, 2012 5:47 am

KysenMurrin wrote:Except they'll almost certainly bake in the debuff to the base enemy swing timers - they're removing the debuff because you could assume 100% uptime anyway. For all of Cata they've had to design bosses by saying "this is how fast it should swing, so we'll set it x faster to account for the debuff".

I don't think that's a reasonable assumption at all. They could do it, of course, but I don't think they will. It's far easier to just reduce boss damage and keep the faster swing timer, especially since that's a better setup for everyone's active mitigation.

My guess is that the 3-second duration was not pulled out of a hat. It was probably deliberately chosen to be twice the default boss swing timer for exactly the reason we were (erroneously) concerned about.
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Re: MoP Mastery Discussion

Postby theckhd » Tue May 08, 2012 5:49 am

Sagara wrote:I had the impression the point was missed, for some reason.

The current point of contention, as far as I could read is something like: "the buff has a duration greater than a single swing, but smaller than 2 swings, ergo, to optimise gameplay, we should try and squeeze two swings inside of every SotR, all other things remaining equal." So the point is more about swing times 1.5 > x > 3.

While I could understand his logic up to there, I got my hackles raised at the second point. Wherever the penalty is, if a penalty exist, it IS a problem. I don't think many thanks live with a "lol, healer's problem" attitude. One the one hand, we want to make our healer's job easier to improve the group's survivability, and on the other hand, unhappy healers find tanks from other classes, at least at the highest levels.


There isn't a penalty, that's the point. A boss swing timer of 1.5 guarantees that you always fit 2 boss swings into the buff duration. Thus making a swing timer addon completely useless.
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Re: MoP Mastery Discussion

Postby benebarba » Tue May 08, 2012 5:52 am

Sagara wrote:But, on a more positive note, I'll agree with his concept of fast generation - more frequent and faster decision creates a more energetic dynamic. I'm less convinced by Bastion of Glory, but mostly because it feels tacked on. It can find its place by becoming a mid-term panic button, so I'm not too worried.


I do think the changes will also make holy power not feel as tacked on, as it did just after it was introduced because of how it was generated in our rotation and there wasn't much of a (real) choice in how to spend it.
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Re: MoP Mastery Discussion

Postby benebarba » Tue May 08, 2012 5:55 am

theckhd wrote:
Sagara wrote:I had the impression the point was missed, for some reason.

The current point of contention, as far as I could read is something like: "the buff has a duration greater than a single swing, but smaller than 2 swings, ergo, to optimise gameplay, we should try and squeeze two swings inside of every SotR, all other things remaining equal." So the point is more about swing times 1.5 > x > 3.

While I could understand his logic up to there, I got my hackles raised at the second point. Wherever the penalty is, if a penalty exist, it IS a problem. I don't think many thanks live with a "lol, healer's problem" attitude. One the one hand, we want to make our healer's job easier to improve the group's survivability, and on the other hand, unhappy healers find tanks from other classes, at least at the highest levels.


There isn't a penalty, that's the point. A boss swing timer of 1.5 guarantees that you always fit 2 boss swings into the buff duration. Thus making a swing timer addon completely useless.



I think Sagara's talking about GC's mention of a possible case where the swing timer isn't 1.5s.
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Re: MoP Mastery Discussion

Postby Sagara » Tue May 08, 2012 5:59 am

theckhd wrote:There isn't a penalty, that's the point. A boss swing timer of 1.5 guarantees that you always fit 2 boss swings into the buff duration. Thus making a swing timer addon completely useless.


Why did you have to cut the end of my post, theck? :( But basically, you're right: so long as the buff is a multiple of the swing timer, we're safe. Maybe I misread, but I never get the feel they outright stated swing timers will be matched to our buff, and that was my problem.

If it's out in the air, then, I'm cool with that. At worst it's a bit sad they lose some flexibility with the timer, but they can certainly build bosses around 3.0, 1.5, 1.0 and 0.5 swing timers.

benebarba wrote:I do think the changes will also make holy power not feel as tacked on, as it did just after it was introduced because of how it was generated in our rotation and there wasn't much of a (real) choice in how to spend it.


Yep. In fact I'm mostly in agreement the way we're going is good. There are things that need to be tweaked or outright stated (like the swing timer = buff duration/2), but this entire thing starts to feel "right", mechanics-wise.
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Re: MoP Mastery Discussion

Postby theckhd » Tue May 08, 2012 6:10 am

benebarba wrote:I think Sagara's talking about GC's mention of a possible case where the swing timer isn't 1.5s.

We'll be (potentially) slightly weaker on those bosses without accurate timing, but it will depend on the exact swing timer. Conversely, we'll be much stronger on dual-wield bosses.

But in any event, we've seen how many bosses this expansion with slow swing timers? A handful at most, and I wouldn't count Chimaeron since that's more of a gimmick mechanic (plus the new SotR is very strong for that gimmick). And the "penalty" for not timing things perfectly in those situations is taking 5%-15% more damage. That's not too extreme, and provides some headroom for really excellent tanks to show their stuff. It's far from "need a swing timer addon to function." It's on the level of "I have slightly better gear than my co-tank, or am better at using Holy Shield."

I mean, when it comes down to it, your healers don't notice when a tank takes 10% more damage. We've been having this discussion all expansion, because people can't seem to break themselves of the notion that total damage reduction is a meaningful metric for making yourself easier to heal. Will it become one in Mists? It depends on how they tune mana management for healers, but my guess is that the answer will still be no. The tank that takes smooth damage, or uses his defensive abilities intelligently to smooth out rough spots, is still going to be easier to heal and take less mana to heal, because the healer will be able to use more of his slower, efficient heals.
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Re: MoP Mastery Discussion

Postby Sagara » Tue May 08, 2012 6:14 am

I'll reiterate that even then, they can still work with 3 second timers for huge slams, and 1 second timers for dual-wielding type bosses. Those would still avoid the "hit-and-a-half" problem.
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Re: MoP Mastery Discussion

Postby theckhd » Tue May 08, 2012 6:24 am

Yeah, though I doubt they'll go all the way to a 3-second swing timer for anything. That's an eternity for a healer, so the boss would have to be hitting you with an Impale every swing.

My concerns about SotR have more or less been eliminated now. I was worried about the "default" scenario, because that's what they balance around. If we were faced with having to micromanage on every boss, then it becomes both annoying and a potential balance issue. Do you balance assuming every paladin has a swing timer mod, thus making it almost a necessity to be on-par with other tanks? Do you balance without it, and accept that at the bleeding edge, paladins will have a noticeable advantage over other tanks? Neither seems like an ideal situation.

If we're balanced around a "default" scenario where timing doesn't matter, then we shouldn't be that far behind (or ahead, for that matter) on outlier bosses.
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Re: MoP Mastery Discussion

Postby Winkle » Tue May 08, 2012 7:27 am

In a perfect world can't you squeeze 3 boss attacks into a 3 second SotR buff window? Pretty unrealistic i know.
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Re: MoP Mastery Discussion

Postby theckhd » Tue May 08, 2012 7:34 am

Winkle wrote:In a perfect world can't you squeeze 3 boss attacks into a 3 second SotR buff window? Pretty unrealistic i know.

No. You either catch the first and second attack or the second and third attack. There's no way to get all three as long as both the buff and swing timer use the same timing conventions.
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Re: MoP Mastery Discussion

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue May 08, 2012 8:37 am

You know, I think I misread what he said. Didn't realise he said they hardly ever hit slower than 1.5. I've been thinking of swing timers usually being closer to 2 seconds, so read it the other way round.
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