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MoP Mastery Discussion

Mists of Pandaria Beta discussion

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Re: MoP Mastery Discussion

Postby rodos » Tue May 01, 2012 11:12 pm

Flex wrote:Everyone is ignoring the most important change. Gnomish Army Knife gives a +10 boost to gathering professions!

brb, hoarding saronite
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Re: MoP Mastery Discussion

Postby Slootbag » Wed May 02, 2012 8:20 am

Not sure if it was commented on yet but as of latest patch:

- The "effectiveness of SotR" for mastery seems to be doing nothing at the moment that I can see
- Divine Purpose seems to be bugged, won't proc properly from SotR and seems to proc from Hammer of Wrath
- Sanctity of Battle seems to effect every one of our skills, aside from Avenger's
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Re: MoP Mastery Discussion

Postby halabar » Wed May 02, 2012 9:02 am

rodos wrote:
Flex wrote:Everyone is ignoring the most important change. Gnomish Army Knife gives a +10 boost to gathering professions!

brb, hoarding saronite


Gee, I wish I had the 50 or so knives that I vendored.. :-)

It will help with leveling engineering, but I don't see a long-term boost out of this.
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Re: MoP Mastery Discussion

Postby Kihra » Wed May 02, 2012 8:52 pm

Maybe Mastery will extend the duration of SotR, and that's why it has such a small base duration.
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Re: MoP Mastery Discussion

Postby theckhd » Thu May 03, 2012 6:01 am

Kihra wrote:Maybe Mastery will extend the duration of SotR, and that's why it has such a small base duration.

I doubt it. They're afraid of giving us anything near 100% uptime on a 30% DR buff (i.e., block cap), and for good reason. I'm more inclined to believe that mastery will increase the DR. Think about it - the earlier version of SotR gave a guaranteed block that provided 75% mitigation for one attack. 3 seconds is just about the minimum buff duration you can do while still guaranteeing you'll get one block in (think bosses with 2.4 swing timers).

I think this version is designed to be the "one block at high mitigation value" equivalent using DR instead of a guaranteed block. That fixes the aoe problem (where one gblock is basically useless). The only downside is that in theory, you're better off trying to time it to cover 2 attacks, if possible. But I agree with Mel - it's really the first attack that matters the most. The rest is just throughput damage, and not likely to matter one way or the other. If you're in danger from 2 melees, you're going to hit SotR twice (or possibly SotR+WoG, or a cooldown, etc.).

I still would prefer that the temptation to get 2 swings out of every cast wasn't there, just because a) I'm lazy and don't want to have to worry about it, but I'll feel obligated to, and b) I don't think the twitch timing aspect adds any appreciable depth or choice to gameplay. There's no case where you wouldn't be better off casting it within 1s of the boss's next swing, so it's a false choice.

That said, best-case scenario, the player who times perfectly gets X% redux off of two swings out of 4 (assume you cast SotR at least once every 8 seconds). The person who uses it randomly gets X% off of one, and X% off of the second roughly 50% of the time if we treat it as stochastic. So the increase in damage intake for someone hitting it randomly is:
Code: Select all
relative damage increase Y = (4-1.5*X)/(4-2*X)

Some representative points:
Code: Select all
X   30%    40%    50%    60%    70%    80%    90%
Y  1.044  1.063  1.083  1.107  1.135  1.167  1.205

Realistically, I doubt they'll let the redux value go above 70-80%, so we're capping out at 13-15% increased damage intake (i.e. throughput). Likelihood is that it'll be even less - at 30 mastery, we'd have 66% redux during SotR (assuming the 1.2%/mastery conversion that's in the tooltip is right). So the penalty for using it "carelessly" isn't that severe.
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Re: MoP Mastery Discussion

Postby benebarba » Thu May 03, 2012 7:46 am

theckhd wrote:Realistically, I doubt they'll let the redux value go above 70-80%, so we're capping out at 13-15% increased damage intake (i.e. throughput). Likelihood is that it'll be even less - at 30 mastery, we'd have 66% redux during SotR (assuming the 1.2%/mastery conversion that's in the tooltip is right). So the penalty for using it "carelessly" isn't that severe.


This last sentence I think will be key in determining if whatever active mitigation model we (as in all tanks) end up with in MOP is a success. Like some others have said elsewhere, it seems that blizzard had a good idea to make tanking more active and engaging... but when the plan hits reality, the good idea suddenly may not be so good.

My core mechanical concern is one of feedback: I want to know when I messed up, what I did wrong so I can fix it, and want to have fairly limited occurances of the 'simple mistake/mis-timing == instant death/wipe' scenario (i.e. not one every single fight). This is actually where the tuning of the initial 5-mans is of great interest to me, possibly more than the raids: if the 'basic training/practice' area for a new tank is tuned such that they and their healer/group can't tell the difference between properly and improperly/not used active mitigation, then there's a whole lot of people who won't have gotten good feedback on what they should have been doing until after they should know it (raids).
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Re: MoP Mastery Discussion

Postby lakhesis » Thu May 03, 2012 8:48 am

benebarba wrote:My core mechanical concern is one of feedback: I want to know when I messed up, what I did wrong so I can fix it, and want to have fairly limited occurances of the 'simple mistake/mis-timing == instant death/wipe' scenario (i.e. not one every single fight). This is actually where the tuning of the initial 5-mans is of great interest to me, possibly more than the raids: if the 'basic training/practice' area for a new tank is tuned such that they and their healer/group can't tell the difference between properly and improperly/not used active mitigation, then there's a whole lot of people who won't have gotten good feedback on what they should have been doing until after they should know it (raids).


Absolutely agree. DTPS is a decent tanking statistic just cos it can be brought up on recount and shoved into your face by any windowlicker. We need semi-valid measurements like that - HPS might not be as valid as DPS, but at least it gives you a general indicator.

Elements like the 2 AM'd versus 1 AM'd start to get a lot more problematic because to monitor that sort of thing you ideally need to be looking at a timeline, and the best quick approximation you might hope for is a ratio of unshielded to shielded hits (assuming recount etc will be able to pick it up neatly without getting confused by priest shields or rng blocks, depending on what they're measured as). That's getting beyond the capacity of random pugs.
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Re: MoP Mastery Discussion

Postby Jaitee » Thu May 03, 2012 1:04 pm

Slootbag wrote:Not sure if it was commented on yet but as of latest patch:

- The "effectiveness of SotR" for mastery seems to be doing nothing at the moment that I can see
- Divine Purpose seems to be bugged, won't proc properly from SotR and seems to proc from Hammer of Wrath
- Sanctity of Battle seems to effect every one of our skills, aside from Avenger's


i too noticed the divine purpose procs from hammer of wrath i was hoping it wasnt a bug and they buffed divine purpose to allow more hopo ability usage sub 20% but since from what ive heard divine purpose is the strongest of all 3 talents for all 3 specs i doubt they would buff it!
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Re: MoP Mastery Discussion

Postby Yelena » Thu May 03, 2012 4:44 pm

Jaitee wrote:from what ive heard divine purpose is the strongest of all 3 talents for all 3 specs

There are too many variables to make definitive statements like that. What may be "stronger" in one situation is not necessarily strongest in all situations. Given a talent model like this, on a fight with short burn windows (a la Spine); I sincerely doubt any Paladin, in their right mind, would take Divine Purpose over the other options.

That's the whole point behind the overhauled talent system, or at least the goal the developers are aiming for; pick the talents suited to your playstyle, or the demands of the encounter/environment.
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Re: MoP Mastery Discussion

Postby Jaitee » Fri May 04, 2012 12:27 am

Yelena wrote:
Jaitee wrote:from what ive heard divine purpose is the strongest of all 3 talents for all 3 specs

There are too many variables to make definitive statements like that. What may be "stronger" in one situation is not necessarily strongest in all situations. Given a talent model like this, on a fight with short burn windows (a la Spine); I sincerely doubt any Paladin, in their right mind, would take Divine Purpose over the other options.

That's the whole point behind the overhauled talent system, or at least the goal the developers are aiming for; pick the talents suited to your playstyle, or the demands of the encounter/environment.


stongest for your "standard fight"

fights having a mechanic that favors the other talents i.e anything with an airphase that must be dpsd hard or a short burn phase for ret. For holy anything where they must constantly move while healing hard or possibly need a lot of AoE in one short period for prot anything where short burst of mitigation not handlable by our normal CDs is preferable too constant mitigation over the course of the fight...or anytime we need to spam judgement (never?)
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Re: MoP Mastery Discussion

Postby Esilence » Fri May 04, 2012 2:49 am

Jaitee wrote:or anytime we need to spam judgement (never?)


I was thinking challenge mode speed runs along with Long arm of the Law, for perma sprint without having to worry about keeping holy power high between packs, and using critters to keep the movement going.
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Re: MoP Mastery Discussion

Postby stevos » Fri May 04, 2012 11:04 am

Jaitee wrote:or anytime we need to spam judgement (never?)


Being able to spam judgement on the last part of spine, would be rather handy, especially when kiting the mobs.
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Re: MoP Mastery Discussion

Postby Jaitee » Fri May 04, 2012 1:20 pm

Esilence wrote:
Jaitee wrote:or anytime we need to spam judgement (never?)


I was thinking challenge mode speed runs along with Long arm of the Law, for perma sprint without having to worry about keeping holy power high between packs, and using critters to keep the movement going.


ohhh why did i never think of the synergy between it and long arm :(
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Re: MoP Mastery Discussion

Postby Fetzie » Sat May 05, 2012 5:09 am

Esilence wrote:
Jaitee wrote:or anytime we need to spam judgement (never?)


I was thinking challenge mode speed runs along with Long arm of the Law, for perma sprint without having to worry about keeping holy power high between packs, and using critters to keep the movement going.


Just so long as you don't get too far away from the healer, and die because of it :)
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Re: MoP Mastery Discussion

Postby Skye1013 » Sun May 06, 2012 5:27 pm

Pyrea wrote:Just so long as you don't get too far away from the healer, and die because of it

Pally healer, obviously.
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