MoP Mastery Discussion

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Re: MoP Mastery Discussion

Postby Nordix » Tue May 01, 2012 10:57 am

Mastery: Divine Bulwark now also increases the effectiveness of Shield of the Righteous.


/thread.
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Re: MoP Mastery Discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Tue May 01, 2012 11:00 am

Nordix wrote:/thread.


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I know you're jesting, but still -- XD
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Re: MoP Mastery Discussion

Postby Meloree » Tue May 01, 2012 11:07 am

Klaudandus wrote:Some just don't have the mental bandwidth -- I think I'd just tunnel vision on it if that were to happen.


Either way, I'm not sure it's a great argument that something is hard to do without an addon. WoW is a game that's largely built around customizing via addons. There are any number of mechanics that are much more difficult (or functionally impossible) to execute well without addons in ever facet of the game.
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Re: MoP Mastery Discussion

Postby lakhesis » Tue May 01, 2012 11:27 am

The bit that makes me most uncomfortable about the micromanaging is actually that the people it punishes the most are those who're trying to do the right thing, but aren't quite getting it right.

For simplicities sake, say we've got a 2s boss swing & a 6s SotR with 3s uptime.

Someone who's just randomly pushing the button will just have a bit under 50% uptime & maybe they'll get lucky or maybe they won't, so roughly half the time they'll get 1 block & half the time they'll get 2.

Someone who's reliably pressing the button when there's less than 1s on the boss timer will get 2 swings all the time.

Someone who's trying to do the right thing but stuffing up (i.e. pressing sometime just after a boss swing or just over 1s prior to the next on the server side), or someone who's being random but is exceptionally tight/reliable on their SotR timing & happened to hit SotR just after a boss swing in the first place... those guys will always mitigate only 1 swing.

So somewhere between being sloppy & being absolutely reliable there's a dip where halfway-skilled play is actually a very bad thing.

And I agree entirely with Theck's point about the % payoff over that small a window being disproportionate, which makes that sort of nearly-skilled play particularly punishing.
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Re: MoP Mastery Discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Tue May 01, 2012 11:38 am

Meloree wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:Some just don't have the mental bandwidth -- I think I'd just tunnel vision on it if that were to happen.


Either way, I'm not sure it's a great argument that something is hard to do without an addon. WoW is a game that's largely built around customizing via addons. There are any number of mechanics that are much more difficult (or functionally impossible) to execute well without addons in ever facet of the game.


Yeah, and I agree, I just think it's bad design when it gets to that point, and blizz expects that to be the norm.
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Re: MoP Mastery Discussion

Postby Meloree » Tue May 01, 2012 12:13 pm

lakhesis wrote:The bit that makes me most uncomfortable about the micromanaging is actually that the people it punishes the most are those who're trying to do the right thing, but aren't quite getting it right.

So somewhere between being sloppy & being absolutely reliable there's a dip where halfway-skilled play is actually a very bad thing.


I agree with everything you wrote about the mechanics - there's a dip from being "halfway skilled", etc - absolutely correct. However, I disagree completely with your takeaway - I would argue that that's a Very Good Thing. You can play decently without a ton of practice, and executing the difficult version and attempting to play aggressively carries risks.

In much the same way that improper use of the Inquisition rotation in Cataclysm resulted in a DPS loss over ignoring it completely, but correctly executed it was a gain, I absolutely think that Active Mitigation shouldn't be completely forgiving. Just hitting the button will always give you some kind of benefit. Doing it perfectly will gain you a bigger benefit. Trying to be aggressive and failing will get you killed. That, in my books, is a good mechanic.
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Re: MoP Mastery Discussion

Postby Flex » Tue May 01, 2012 12:50 pm

Meloree wrote:Just hitting the button will always give you some kind of benefit. Doing it perfectly will gain you a bigger benefit. Trying to be aggressive and failing will get you killed. That, in my books, is a good mechanic.


I think this is exactly what they're going for, except the killed thing. You'll just be much harder to keep alive by healers having to spend more mana to keep you up.
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Re: MoP Mastery Discussion

Postby lakhesis » Tue May 01, 2012 12:53 pm

Meloree wrote:In much the same way that improper use of the Inquisition rotation in Cataclysm resulted in a DPS loss over ignoring it completely, but correctly executed it was a gain, I absolutely think that Active Mitigation shouldn't be completely forgiving. Just hitting the button will always give you some kind of benefit. Doing it perfectly will gain you a bigger benefit. Trying to be aggressive and failing will get you killed. That, in my books, is a good mechanic.


Yeah, I'm of two minds about it. I halfway agree with you, but this is a very big swing in active mitigation that we're talking about. Stuffing up a couple of percent via Inq/SD is one thing, this is a whole other league. Hence my concern.

But, that said, someone who knows what they should be doing & is trying to do it will (hopefully) get better with time. Tanking should be about more than just long CDs, and we do need more opportunities to fail than are currently available. It'll also provide a nice concrete way for people who're learning to look at something & rate how they're doing - I don't feel like there's enough clear feedback in tanking at present.

I'm definitely hoping that we see a lot more opportunity to "bleed to death" in MoP. If they wuss out & don't follow through on that because healers get too distraught about propping up subpar tanking or OOMing due to it, I'll be extremely disappointed.
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Re: MoP Mastery Discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Tue May 01, 2012 12:55 pm

lakhesis wrote:
Meloree wrote:In much the same way that improper use of the Inquisition rotation in Cataclysm resulted in a DPS loss over ignoring it completely, but correctly executed it was a gain, I absolutely think that Active Mitigation shouldn't be completely forgiving. Just hitting the button will always give you some kind of benefit. Doing it perfectly will gain you a bigger benefit. Trying to be aggressive and failing will get you killed. That, in my books, is a good mechanic.


Yeah, I'm of two minds about it. I halfway agree with you, but this is a very big swing in active mitigation that we're talking about. Stuffing up a couple of percent via Inq/SD is one thing, this is a whole other league. Hence my concern..


I agree. Making it so clear cut/binary is bad. Making it closer to 20-30% seems more acceptable.
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Re: MoP Mastery Discussion

Postby lakhesis » Tue May 01, 2012 1:09 pm

Klaudandus wrote:
lakhesis wrote:
Meloree wrote:In much the same way that improper use of the Inquisition rotation in Cataclysm resulted in a DPS loss over ignoring it completely, but correctly executed it was a gain, I absolutely think that Active Mitigation shouldn't be completely forgiving. Just hitting the button will always give you some kind of benefit. Doing it perfectly will gain you a bigger benefit. Trying to be aggressive and failing will get you killed. That, in my books, is a good mechanic.


Yeah, I'm of two minds about it. I halfway agree with you, but this is a very big swing in active mitigation that we're talking about. Stuffing up a couple of percent via Inq/SD is one thing, this is a whole other league. Hence my concern..


I agree. Making it so clear cut/binary is bad. Making it closer to 20-30% seems more acceptable.


It is likely to be a lot closer than the 66% worst case scenario I paint, assuming you know what you should be doing. The ones who'll really get spanked are the mainspec DPSers who can execute a rotation exceptionally tightly but happen to start pushing SotR immediately after an initial hit. Which also has a certain psychological element to it too admittedly ("ooh, i just got hit! I'll press SotR to mitigate stuff, that's what tanks do, roight?").

Someone who's genuinely aiming for the right time period is much more likely to be 50/50 on being sync'd/out-of-sync, which is immediately pushing you back into the same range as someone who's relying on blind luck.
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Re: MoP Mastery Discussion

Postby Meloree » Tue May 01, 2012 1:12 pm

Flex wrote:
Meloree wrote:Just hitting the button will always give you some kind of benefit. Doing it perfectly will gain you a bigger benefit. Trying to be aggressive and failing will get you killed. That, in my books, is a good mechanic.


I think this is exactly what they're going for, except the killed thing. You'll just be much harder to keep alive by healers having to spend more mana to keep you up.


No, you'll be dead. Because aiming for 2 swings and failing means you miss the first swing, and the first swing will always be the critical/important one. Using SotR is still a strategic decision, it's still a cooldown, however short the duration. You'll use it because you're in a dangerous situation, for whatever reason - low health, boss special due, whatever - you use it because you need it. Or because you're at 5HP, and timing it matters very little then.

If you're using it because you need it, and you miss - you'll be dead.

Klaudandus wrote:
lakhesis wrote:Yeah, I'm of two minds about it. I halfway agree with you, but this is a very big swing in active mitigation that we're talking about.


I agree. Making it so clear cut/binary is bad. Making it closer to 20-30% seems more acceptable.


No - the difference between always hitting 1 swing, but always hitting *the right* swing versus always hitting 2 swings (but still always getting the right one) is very small. By the time the second swing rolls around, you've had an extra two seconds to react, and so have your healers. The situation is completely different by then. The difference between always hitting 2 swings (and always getting the right one) and aiming for 2 and missing is enormous, because you'll die. Good. If failure is not an option, then the system sucks.

Make no mistake, a SotR that's 50% off the next melee swing is a survival cooldown. Getting 2 swings is nice, but the primary benefit is "one swing of guaranteed coverage". It's only a TDR tool in that it's also our HP dump. The primary element in correct use of SotR as a cooldown is *always* going to be getting the important boss swings, and it will be far more important to hit the one right swing than to time it to get two. Sure, most of us who read here will make the effort to get two anyway, but lets not blind ourselves to the fact that we're already focusing on the nitty-gritty and ignoring the actual power and use of the ability.
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Re: MoP Mastery Discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Tue May 01, 2012 1:26 pm

My biggest complaint is that if it were a 6 sec duration, the punishment for not being hitting SotR at the right moment where it would work for 3 boss swings is just %33 of the total effectiveness of SotR (2 swings vs 3 swings), whereas with a buff as short as 3 secs, the punishment is 50% if you don't cover the possible boss swings within that time frame (1 swing vs 2 swings).
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Re: MoP Mastery Discussion

Postby Meloree » Tue May 01, 2012 1:39 pm

Klaudandus wrote:My biggest complaint is that if it were a 6 sec duration, the punishment for not being hitting SotR at the right moment where it would work for 3 boss swings is just %33 of the total effectiveness of SotR (2 swings vs 3 swings), whereas with a buff as short as 3 secs, the punishment is 50% if you don't cover the possible boss swings within that time frame (1 swing vs 2 swings).


No. See post directly above.

But in more detail: As a TDR ability, perfect use of SotR covers 2 swings out of 5. "Perfect failure" covers 1 swing out of a 5, a difference of 20% for swing coverage. As a cooldown, the first swing is by far the most important one, the delta is much much smaller.
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Re: MoP Mastery Discussion

Postby danpaladin » Tue May 01, 2012 3:31 pm

I doubt we are going to see the 3 second duration on SotR make it to live. We would be the only tank that would significantly benefit from watching the swing timers on bosses. Not saying tanks should all have the same model, but I don't think having this type of difference for only one of the tanks is what they would want to go for.

Not only is watching boss swing timers a horribly dull, silly and tunnel-vision-inducing way for us to show off our chops as tanks, but it is also not really possible without addons, as someone said. Although it is obvious to us heroic raiders that addons are a given, and raiding without them would be nuts, the majority of tanks have never seen a heroic raid and I'd be willing to bet half of WoW players (if not more) don't have a single addon installed. We don't care that we will need an addon, but I think Blizz does.

My expectation: SotR will be changed to a 6 second duration with a 20% physical mitigation.
My hope: They seriously reconsider the uptimes on their active mitigation abilities. I think I saw Theck calculate shield block uptime at 80% for warriors. If the point of active mitigation is to try to keep a buff up for as large a portion of a fight as possible, then thats fine. If the point of it is to react to or proactively mitigate damage, then I think a change has to occur.

Edit: Forgot to /cheer at Blizz for making Mastery scale with SotR exactly how they should have. Simple and effective.

Edit 2: In regards to Meloree's responses that the most important swing will generally be the first one while SotR is active, I do not think that this idea of "use properly or die" is really an issue. We are pushing SotR virtually every 6 seconds. If we are in the type of situation where we are going to die unless we use SotR properly, we are going to use WoG instead. This is of course not including abilities such as Impale or Morchok Stomp, which are easily predictable. Talking about just melee hits. If the next melee hit is gonna kill me (a situation which I am faced with maybe a few times per encounter) I am popping WoG. SotR is not there to prevent death; it is there to let healers use less mana and prevent chains of hard hits.
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Re: MoP Mastery Discussion

Postby Klaudandus » Tue May 01, 2012 5:32 pm

Still would like to know what exactly they mean when they say "Increases the effectiveness of your Shield of the Righteous"
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