GC answered a prot post, and didn't say much

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Re: GC answered a prot post, and didn't say much

Postby theckhd » Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:26 pm

Klaudandus wrote:Paging Dr Theck to the beta thread. Maybe you can smack some sense into that crab.


Hmm? What for? Most of the OP's points are complete junk, like I said in the frustrations thread. I'm glad GC ignored them rather than giving them any credence.

The only glaring issue right now is mastery, and even there the jury's still out. It won't be clear exactly how bad mastery is until I can sit down and do some math and a few monte carlo simulations.
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Re: GC answered a prot post, and didn't say much

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:35 pm

Well, I was just following Lieris' train of thought -- You know, the whole mastery thing?
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Re: GC answered a prot post, and didn't say much

Postby halabar » Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:50 pm

theckhd wrote:Hmm? What for? Most of the OP's points are complete junk, like I said in the frustrations thread. I'm glad GC ignored them rather than giving them any credence.


Yes, because ignoring questions that may seem reasonable to the less-informed is the best way to inform them. Best to keep the unwashed masses clueless. Yep, good plan.
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Re: GC answered a prot post, and didn't say much

Postby theckhd » Mon Apr 02, 2012 2:59 pm

halabar wrote:
theckhd wrote:Hmm? What for? Most of the OP's points are complete junk, like I said in the frustrations thread. I'm glad GC ignored them rather than giving them any credence.


Yes, because ignoring questions that may seem reasonable to the less-informed is the best way to inform them. Best to keep the unwashed masses clueless. Yep, good plan.

Yes, because having the lead system designer answering every moronic question on the beta forums is the best way to get this expansion released on time. Best to make sure every whine and complaint gets a thorough answer. Great plan.
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Re: GC answered a prot post, and didn't say much

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Apr 02, 2012 3:30 pm

It's ok that GC didn't answer all the questions, but I still think that mastery should be addressed -- it feels wanting, even vs the other shield tank.

That thread is at least being checked upon by GC, so airing the mastery concerns there sounds like a sensible idea IMO.
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Re: GC answered a prot post, and didn't say much

Postby Cema » Mon Apr 02, 2012 6:35 pm

My biggest concern is about our finisher and the so called "active mitigation"

In Mop we have 3 finishers
- Shield Slam
- WoG
- Sacred shield (increase our WoG + absorb shield)
1) If WoG + Sacred shield heals for more than what Shield Slam blocks then WoG > Shield Slam whatever you do
2) If Wog + Sacred shield heals for less than what Shield Slam blocks then Shield Slam > WoG whatever you do
3) If Wog + Sacred shield heals for a bit less than what Shield Slam blocks but the overheal is converted into absorption Shield then yes you have to choose

Atm I'm not in Beta but I suspect that we are in case 1 and well .. there is no choice, I can't call this "active mitigation" or "clever gameplay" .. it's just pushing "shield block" every 8 seconds. I remember after Wotlk when GC said "we don't feel it's an interesting gameplay to have to push the same mitigation button every few seconds" ... and ... well ... it seems now he calls it an "interesting and good design" ?

I think it would be cool if the overheal from Wog was converted into absorption.




About our mastery I see no problem. If it stays like this with a second roll + diminishing return + shield block every ~8 seconds ... I would go for full stamina and reforge for dodge/parry and ditch mastery from my gear. Stacking mastery during Cataclysm wasn't more interesting in my opinion than stacking stamina during wotlk/bc, when people know what is their best statistic they just stack it as much as they can without really thinking about it.
Thinking about it .. I found it kinda funny when GC said "stacking mastery was easy to master but difficult to understand for players, we want things easy to understand but difficult to master" .. YEAAAAAAH because stacking stamina would be difficult to master? What a joke seriously ... just because they don't want to say "We need to change game mechanisms even if some of them are ok because if game mechanisms didn't change people would be really bored after some time"
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Re: GC answered a prot post, and didn't say much

Postby Sabindeus » Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:59 pm

Sacred Shield doesn't consume Holy Power. Perhaps you meant Eternal Flame?
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Re: GC answered a prot post, and didn't say much

Postby theckhd » Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:15 pm

Cema wrote:1) If WoG + Sacred shield heals for more than what Shield Slam blocks then WoG > Shield Slam whatever you do
2) If Wog + Sacred shield heals for less than what Shield Slam blocks then Shield Slam > WoG whatever you do
3) If Wog + Sacred shield heals for a bit less than what Shield Slam blocks but the overheal is converted into absorption Shield then yes you have to choose

That's entirely not true. For starters, you're assuming a purely physical, purely blockable incoming damage stream. You're also ignoring healers, and the fact that WoG doesn't grant an overheal bubble.

If you're at full health, you'd never use WoG, because it's worthless. So SotR>WoG in that situation no matter how much WoG heals for. Similarly, if you're at low health, you might be spamming WoG to heal yourself up and get yourself out of the danger zone. Or, if you know your healers are queuing up heals that will land before the next melee/special, you might just SotR it. But if it's a magical attack, you'd WoG.

Here's a log from my Jade Temple run on Sunday. WoG is healing for 25-30k or so, depending on SS status and buffs. I've seen it crit for 60k, but that probably involved some other buffs and AW while soloing. Over 30 seconds, Sacred Shield should absorb roughly ~5.5k*5, or about as much as one WoG. However, it's spread out over time, and it increases our burst healing with WoG, making it a good idea to keep it up as a maintenance-y buff. SotR blocks are very weak because this is a normal mode dungeon, but the block amount buff is still very powerful mitigation for AoE tanking. So they all have their niches, and I think so far the three spells aren't doing too bad a job.

That said, note that SS only costs mana in the beta, not holy power. Nobody knows if this is an oversight yet, afaik.

Cema wrote:I think it would be cool if the overheal from Wog was converted into absorption.


Bad idea, actually. Would it be more powerful? Yes. Would it be balanced? No. With a spammable WoG, you really can't have the absorb shield, because that would trump SotR in most situations. You get either one or the other - absorb shield with a cooldown, or no absorb shield and no cooldown. You can't have both, it just wouldn't be balanced without neutering WoG and making it useless all the time.

Actually, that would make a cool glyph. Increase the cooldown to 15-20 seconds and grant it overheal bubble.
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Re: GC answered a prot post, and didn't say much

Postby theckhd » Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:16 pm

Sabindeus wrote:Sacred Shield doesn't consume Holy Power. Perhaps you meant Eternal Flame?

It was originally supposed to consume Holy Power according to one of the talent trees. It just wasn't implemented that way.

Also note that if you look at the WoL parse, Sacred Shield is actually the spellid of Holy Shield (that's what the tooltip shows).
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Re: GC answered a prot post, and didn't say much

Postby tlitp » Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:38 pm


You suck big time, Theck. You're such a fucking tease. :P

Code: Select all
[14:58:52.134] Theck hits Glass Eel 3242
[14:58:54.739] Theck hits Glass Eel 3561
[14:58:55.341] Glass Eel hits Theck Parry
[14:58:56.827] Theck hits Glass Eel 4446

Still alive and well, eh ?
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Re: GC answered a prot post, and didn't say much

Postby Cema » Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:21 am

I still tink that in raid situation (not talking about dungeons here because whatever you do it doesn't even matter) you will spend your holy power un SotR more than 9 time on 10

ok there are magical damages .. let's imagine that a dragon breath is going to hit you and you wog yourself, ok you have now more health but then there is a good chance you won't even block the next dragon melee attack meaning you take more damages than if you'd use SotR. If I were a healer I might tell my tank "don't heal yourself unless you're under 25% HP, just block, I do the healing job"
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Re: GC answered a prot post, and didn't say much

Postby theckhd » Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:06 am

And in general, I'd say that's good advice. Except when your healers are moving, or you know the boss is going to put a big DoT on you (Yor'sahj), or any other number of situations where the encounter mechanics dictate otherwise. There are lots of situations where you would prioritize WoG over SotR. Even your example demonstrates this: "What's my current health at? Am I likely to survive the dragon breath without casting WoG first? Or would it be better to save it for the following melee?" The answer depends on several factors, including your health, what cooldowns/procs you have up (maybe a mastery proc means you're nearly block-capped, so it's safer to WoG to buffer against the breath), etc.
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Re: GC answered a prot post, and didn't say much

Postby theckhd » Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:07 am

tlitp wrote:

You suck big time, Theck. You're such a fucking tease. :P

Code: Select all
[14:58:52.134] Theck hits Glass Eel 3242
[14:58:54.739] Theck hits Glass Eel 3561
[14:58:55.341] Glass Eel hits Theck Parry
[14:58:56.827] Theck hits Glass Eel 4446

Still alive and well, eh ?

My early-morning, pre-coffee brain is a little fuzzy. Parry-haste confirmation? Do I win?
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Re: GC answered a prot post, and didn't say much

Postby benebarba » Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:14 am

Cema wrote:I still tink that in raid situation (not talking about dungeons here because whatever you do it doesn't even matter) you will spend your holy power un SotR more than 9 time on 10


it would be kind of sad if a result of this whole active mitigation thing was that 5-mans are so undertuned that you can't actually make a bad choice.
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Re: GC answered a prot post, and didn't say much

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:20 am

Well they're supposed to be tuning 5 mans as quick and easy like in WotLK this time round. For most of those runs we'll likely just use glyphed WoG for AoE damage. For raids, there'll be choice depending on situation (current health and type of incoming damage).

Speaking of WoG, is it still looking like we'll use Seal of Insight for tanking?
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