Brewmaster info and impressions, esp. Pandaren

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Re: Brewmaster info and impressions, esp. Pandaren

Postby Jheherrin » Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:23 am

Possibly, but to be honest I've never really noticed.
I'm fairly sure that for DK's the taunt ability is linked to Blood spec rather than being universal, or at least one of the taunts is. I seem to remember it not being available when I transferred my DK into beta until I had sorted out specializations again.
Been too long since I played my Warrior or Pally tanks to remember at all.

I suppose what felt odd was that I thought "If i get it on my Windwalker then I will probably get it on my Mistweaver, and a healer with a taunt just feels wierd". And I suppose that what made me take notice of it is the way that new skills just appear on your bars now when you level up rather than having to go to a trainer and then place the skills on your bars. It does make you take notice of little things like this that you just dismissed or glossed over before.
It is not a case of not knowing the classes I play, but more one of not placing tanking tools on my bars when in dps mode and so not remembering if the taunts are available in all specs.
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Re: Brewmaster info and impressions, esp. Pandaren

Postby Sagara » Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:03 am

Reck is definitly open to all, as is (Warrior) Taunt, Druid Growl and DK Death Grip.

In fact the DK is the weirdest case as its base taunt is spec-specific in current Beta.
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Re: Brewmaster info and impressions, esp. Pandaren

Postby KysenMurrin » Sat Apr 07, 2012 12:58 am

Only just noticed while browsing Wowhead that they fixed Stagger. It now deals 50% of the damage over 9 seconds, instead of dealing it in a single hit after 3 seconds.
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Re: Brewmaster info and impressions, esp. Pandaren

Postby Worldie » Sun Apr 08, 2012 12:36 am

Doesn't really change much though, as after taking several hits in a row, you'll have Stagger eventually ticking more than a normal hit.
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Re: Brewmaster info and impressions, esp. Pandaren

Postby KysenMurrin » Sun Apr 08, 2012 2:47 am

If you're in the situation where you take several large Staggered hits back to back, either through RNG or because you Shuffled them, then the design is that you can use Purifying Brew to remove the Stagger effect. With a 25% Stagger chance (when not Shuffling), it's not going to stack up to big amounts often.

Shuffle and Purifying Brew are going to be a pretty powerful combination.
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Re: Brewmaster info and impressions, esp. Pandaren

Postby Dianora » Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:49 pm

Jheherrin wrote:My Windwalker has overtaken my Brewmaster at the moment, but it has raised a few questions.

The taunt ability is available to all 3 monk sub classes. I found it a bit wierd having a taunt on a dps, although I should be used to it since enhance shammies also have a taunt.

Pulling threat from the tanks is too easy at the moment, although it is understandable having seen towelliee's comment about Ox stance threat possibly being broken.


You also need to look at the spell detail of monk taunt. It ACTUALLY increases speed of the mob being taunted. I actually use it while doing leveling quest to pull. Makes the mob come to me faster. Some of the Windwalker abilities are borderline OP (I'm looking at you Rising Sun Kick).
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Re: Brewmaster info and impressions, esp. Pandaren

Postby KysenMurrin » Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:02 am

I have absolutely no idea what they're trying to do with Brewmaster now. Shuffle now has no cooldown, and Purifying Brew now has a 6 second cooldown. So if threat was no issue you could Shuffle -> Purify -> Shuffle -> Purify non-stop...

Even ignoring Shuffle, at 25% chance to Stagger and 6 second Purifying Brew, you can probably totally negate the majority of Stagger damage - which greatly devalues Mastery (as does the 30 second cooldown on Guard).
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Re: Brewmaster info and impressions, esp. Pandaren

Postby KysenMurrin » Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:29 am

Double post, but I've been thinking about what they're trying to do right now with Monks on and off all day.

The latest relevant changes (ignoring the new talents and focusing on the baseline Brewmaster) are that:

- Guard has a 30 second cooldown
- Shuffle has no cooldown
- Purifying Brew has a 6 second cooldown

Now, the last one I still can't wrap my head around. It just seems wrong to give Monks an ability that spreads damage over 9 seconds, and another ability that can remove it all every 6 seconds. It does cost 1 Chi, but that doesn't seem a great barrier.

Can anyone on beta who's playing a Monk weigh in on how much the 1 Chi cost affects the usability of Purifying Brew?


In my last post I was stupid - Shuffle can't be kept up all the time, it's resource limited, requiring 2 Chi, so at least 2 Jabs or one Keg Smash per Shuffle (GC did suggest they may make Expel Harm a Chi generator too).

The change to Shuffle and Guard are the important ones. By removing the cooldown on Shuffle, they're basically saying this, and not Guard, is the Brewmaster's active mitigation. It's a 6 second duration ability that reduces damage for the next few hits - which makes it their equivalent to Shield of the Righteous, Shield Block, and Savage Defense.

The problem I see with Shuffle as active mitigation is that Shuffle is a channelled spell. While using Shuffle, you can't attack, heal, or move. None of the other tanks have this limitation on their active mitigation. If Blizzard try to push this as the model for Brewmasters, not only will Brewmasters do significantly lower damage than other tanks, they'll also be trading off survivability and mobility.

Shuffle looked pretty good as a situational cooldown to used to avoid big burst. As the active mitigation equivalent to Shield Block, I just can't see it working in its current form. Either they need to put it back on a cooldown and give Monks different active mitigation, or it needs to be an instant cast buff, not a channel.
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Re: Brewmaster info and impressions, esp. Pandaren

Postby Skye1013 » Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:14 pm

Was leveling my monk last night (went fom 25-29 in an hour or so questing in N. STV.)

Things I noticed:

-Pulling multiple mobs is really easy with the Taunt and Ox Charge thing, and often I'd just use my roll with Momentum to grab a group of mobs.

-Killing said groups was also really easy, 3x Haze, Flamebreath, Keg Smash and if it was a 3 mob group, 2 were usually dead, and the 3rd was nearly dead. I imagine a lot of that is due to vengeance, which was giving me some rather nice hits with the Flamebreath.

-I <3 Expel Harm. Can even be used when out of combat and not near any mobs (just heals you.) I'm assuming it's also affected by AP, because I was getting upwards of 400 hp heals (when the tooltip only suggests I should be getting <100.) If they do make it into a chi generator, I imagine that would make it somewhat OP (from my limited perspective anyway.)

-Between Guard and Expel Harm, I was never in any danger of dying (even when pulling 5-6 equal level mobs at once, some of them stunning me.)

-Expel Harm has been targeting the nearest mob within range that has the highest % hp. Occasionally this ends up being a critter that's in range. Not a huge deal as I still get the heal, but the damage is "wasted" if you aren't trying for any critter achievements. Keg Smash can also target critters, but I'm assuming that will all be fixed before going live (as it hasn't been an issue on live for quite some time.)

I can only imagine that when I get up to Shuffle/Purifying Brew, that I'll be able to do some crazy solo stuff (Monks will be the new DK?)

**Please keep in mind, this is all from a low level perspective, and I don't expect blizz to balance around low levels (though it would be nice to a certain extent.) I'll keep playing around with it, and if things change as I get closer to cap, I'll be sure to try and post about it here.
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Re: Brewmaster info and impressions, esp. Pandaren

Postby KysenMurrin » Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:36 am

New changes to tanking: Brewmaster Training now causes Blackout Kick to apply Shuffle, making the next 3 hits staggered. This is the new active mitigation for this build, with Shuffle as a self buff and not a channel, which makes it analogous to ShoR/Shield Block/Death Strike, except that it will have very high uptime of 50% damage reduction... The trade-off being that Blackout Kick now costs 2 Chi and doesn't deal as much total damage at 50+% health.

Expel Harm generates 1 Chi, as promised, and Guard now lasts 30 seconds so may be getting reworked.
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Re: Brewmaster info and impressions, esp. Pandaren

Postby Epimer » Sun Apr 29, 2012 2:20 pm

So, I've been playing a Brewmaster a little bit over this weekend, focusing on dungeons after getting blocked by bugged quests on both Alliance and Horde side (Freeing Our Brothers and Acid Rain, respectively).

I could run the two new dungeons and manage just fine. Although that brewery one is shaping up to be the single most irritating dungeon in the history of WoW - turn sound effects off for it. Trust me. However, when I went back and ran through some Hour of Time heroics, I was getting wrecked. Murozond killed me three times, each time with Guard up, Zen Sphere running and the healer not asleep at the wheel.

It also feels a little too slow and resource-starved at the moment. That might be to do with low levels of dodge; someone I was chatting to after a dungeon run said in the previous build with higher dodge amounts there was a much smoother rate of incoming energy and hence conversion into Chi and more ability usage. One thing I can do to remedy that in the meanwhile is make more use of Elusive Brew to force that extra 50% dodge, since it's 10s duration on a 45s cooldown.

The resource "starvation", apart from making things feel a bit sluggish, means it's honestly a struggle to fit in most of the core abilities. This is exacerbated by Zen Sphere (one of the talents) being really, really good just now and therefore worth spending 2 Chi on to keep rolling. So between keeping Guard up every 30s, spending 2 Chi on Zen Sphere, not having much energy coming in to Jab/Expel Harm --> Blackout Kicks, never mind spending 1 Chi on Purifying Brew or defensive cooldowns... it currently feels, to me, that there could be some interesting choices to be made and abilities to be used situationally but not enough resources to spend on them.

If Zen Sphere wasn't so good then that would free up some Chi to funnel into Blackout Kicks and hence Staggered melee hits to Purifying Brew away. On the other hand, if there was just more incoming energy then there would be a lot more going on overall, which I think would be an improvement. The guy I was chatting to said in the previous build there was enough energy income to Tiger Palm x 3 --> buff your Guard every 30s, and still have Chi left over for Blackout Kicks/Shuffle (as it was then). But that was without Zen Sphere.

So I feel that the spec has the potential to be a lot of fun, and there's definitely hints of ways you could really leverage some skill into massively smoothing out your damage intake, but it doesn't quite feel there yet. Of course, the huge disclaimer should be that there's plenty of stuff I'll be doing wrong so this is hardly gospel truth.
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Re: Brewmaster info and impressions, esp. Pandaren

Postby Epimer » Tue May 01, 2012 11:12 am

The datamined changes look pretty good for Brewmasters, except possibly for the Mastery change.

30% increased energy regeneration for the tank stance should make the whole thing feel a bit less sluggish, together with energy gains tied into successful attacks rather than dodging.

Shuffle (i.e. what happens after you Blackout Kick) changed to be a parry buff and an increase in Shuffle amount.

Mastery now increases parry (hmm...) and Shuffle amount. Interaction with Guard removed.

I'm not sure I understand what's meant by "Shuffle amount", though (I think I'm just being dense). If it means you Shuffle more than 50% of the hit at the expense of a stronger (albeit removable every 6s) DoT then that's a bit of a mixed bag. Although I suppose it rewards the attentive tank and timing Purifying Brew well for maximum effect.

I dislike the mastery change because it de-emphasises the absorb mechanic and shifts more to an "avoidance tank" type role. Brewmasters are already hurting for baseline mitigation (particularly against magic) and "avoidance tanks" are a balance nightmare.

But this is what beta is for.
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Re: Brewmaster info and impressions, esp. Pandaren

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue May 01, 2012 12:52 pm

The bigger problem with the new build is that you're reliant entirely on the base 25% chance to Stagger. Assuming it rolls like block on a second table, that's pretty terrible, and means their mastery is 100% RNG. There's no guaranteed damage mitigation.
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Re: Brewmaster info and impressions, esp. Pandaren

Postby Epimer » Tue May 01, 2012 1:11 pm

I'm also curious to see what the post-DR dodge/parry values are like with Shuffle and Elusive Brew up at the same time.
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Re: Brewmaster info and impressions, esp. Pandaren

Postby Epimer » Tue May 01, 2012 2:25 pm

KysenMurrin wrote:The bigger problem with the new build is that you're reliant entirely on the base 25% chance to Stagger. Assuming it rolls like block on a second table, that's pretty terrible, and means their mastery is 100% RNG. There's no guaranteed damage mitigation.


Stance of the Sturdy Ox has been changed to be guaranteed to Stagger every hit, but at 70% rather than 50%. So it becomes the baseline mitigation.

Blackout Kick then changes it to 50% (and the parry buff), and with the other changes it looks likely that very high Shuffle uptime will be possible.
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