Beta tank set ups and initial thoughts:

Mists of Pandaria Beta discussion

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, Sabindeus, PsiVen

Re: Beta tank set ups and initial thoughts:

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:20 pm

theckhd wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:I don't really think it's nuts. It severely pales in comparison to the damage I'm getting with Ret.

Well, right, but tank damage is about half of what it should be right now. SotR damage (when glyphed) is nuts compared to what our other abilities hit for.


ah, yes. That much is true.
Image
Turn In, an NPC interaction automator - http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addo ... rn-in.aspx
User avatar
Sabindeus
Moderator
 
Posts: 10494
Joined: Mon May 14, 2007 9:24 am

Re: Beta tank set ups and initial thoughts:

Postby Tebin » Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:40 am

I feel like I've got less going on in MoP than I did in Cata.

- GoAK is 'gone' (might be a bug/NYI though, as others have said).
- No AoE taunt unless you're a monk or warrior
- No Holy Shield
- No Hammer of Wrath
- No Divine Guardian (this may be accross the board though - Bliz deciding that raid CDs/mitigation was a Cata thing rather than a MoP thing)

I appreciate that they might be trying to backload the skill of the game, such that learning your rotation, picking good talents and knowing the stat prio is 'easy'; whilst knowing what speical abilities to use where on a bossfight, or knowing when to hit a CD, when to move, will be where the skill is. Despite this, I don't want the early game to be devoid of all tactics and just be like a beat-em-up where you just pick a character and hit play.
Tebin
 
Posts: 99
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 12:18 pm

Re: Beta tank set ups and initial thoughts:

Postby Sabindeus » Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:46 am

Tebin wrote:I feel like I've got less going on in MoP than I did in Cata.

- GoAK is 'gone' (might be a bug/NYI though, as others have said).
- No AoE taunt unless you're a monk or warrior
- No Holy Shield
- No Hammer of Wrath
- No Divine Guardian (this may be accross the board though - Bliz deciding that raid CDs/mitigation was a Cata thing rather than a MoP thing)

I appreciate that they might be trying to backload the skill of the game, such that learning your rotation, picking good talents and knowing the stat prio is 'easy'; whilst knowing what speical abilities to use where on a bossfight, or knowing when to hit a CD, when to move, will be where the skill is. Despite this, I don't want the early game to be devoid of all tactics and just be like a beat-em-up where you just pick a character and hit play.


GoAK is not gone, it's just been Beta'd. You can cast it via /cast in a macro.

I am mighty pissed that RD is gone. I would have been fine with it having a 30s cooldown or some such. It was one of the things that made me feel like being a paladin tank was worthwhile.

Holy Shield is meh, not sad to see it go.

Hammer of Wrath I also don't think we should have lost.

In general, I like the fact that I have less buttons on all my specs. Ret especially feels incredibly streamlined and correct. Prot I think will feel better once they retune the numbers so that hitting ShotR doesn't feel like a waste of my time anymore. I think I would have liked an AoE finisher like Ret has. But aside from that it feels good.
Image
Turn In, an NPC interaction automator - http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addo ... rn-in.aspx
User avatar
Sabindeus
Moderator
 
Posts: 10494
Joined: Mon May 14, 2007 9:24 am

Re: Beta tank set ups and initial thoughts:

Postby Tebin » Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:09 am

Sabindeus wrote:GoAK is not gone, it's just been Beta'd. You can cast it via /cast in a macro.


Yeah, but is there any indication whether it's "not in UI, meant to be in game, it'll be added soon" or "not in UI, not meant to be in game but can be accessed by some macro, but we'll remove that soon"
Tebin
 
Posts: 99
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 12:18 pm

Re: Beta tank set ups and initial thoughts:

Postby KysenMurrin » Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:29 am

I tend to think the most likely explanation is the beta build was taken while they were fiddling with the level it's learned.
Temporarily playing WoW again.
Donnan - Nangun - Kysen - Kysen - Mardun - Timkins

Mostly-Book Blog.
KysenMurrin
 
Posts: 7100
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:37 am
Location: UK

Re: Beta tank set ups and initial thoughts:

Postby Yelena » Thu Apr 05, 2012 1:14 pm

Sabindeus wrote:GoAK is not gone, it's just been Beta'd. You can cast it via /cast in a macro.

I am mighty pissed that RD is gone. I would have been fine with it having a 30s cooldown or some such. It was one of the things that made me feel like being a paladin tank was worthwhile.

Holy Shield is meh, not sad to see it go.

Hammer of Wrath I also don't think we should have lost.

In general, I like the fact that I have less buttons on all my specs. Ret especially feels incredibly streamlined and correct. Prot I think will feel better once they retune the numbers so that hitting ShotR doesn't feel like a waste of my time anymore. I think I would have liked an AoE finisher like Ret has. But aside from that it feels good.

Ret honestly feels like it needs one more button to push to smooth out the gaps, or a shorter baseline cooldown on Exorcism. Even with the bugged T13 2pc giving 2 charges of Holy Power when judging, I was still finding double-empty globals frequently enough to be annoying. The tier bonus tooltip was changed to something in the order of a 15% CS damage increase, since the original effect was made baseline for Prot and Ret. Unless RNG favors you with Art of War and Divine Purpose (if you talent into it) procs, the Ret rotation doesn't feel very fluid to me at all, it honestly reminds me of how Prot felt during the Cataclysm beta before the 3 second CS model.

RD being gone is annoying, bringing it back albeit with a 15-30 second cooldown wouldn't be game breaking.

Holy Shield was essentially baked into SotR, so in a sense its not "gone", but it's no longer independently "active" (unless you count the fact that hitting SotR essentially triggers the effect).

Hammer of Wrath I'm mixed about honestly. The rotation currently works well (after breaking the muscle memory associated with Cataclysm's 3 second Crusader Strike Death March), and there aren't many gaps. Adding Hammer of Wrath to the mix, while iconic to the class overall, doesn't feel overly necessary. The same iconic argument could be made about several of the formerly class-wide abilities being made spec-specific.

Grand Crusader's proc rate feels like it could stand to be adjusted upward slightly. Cataclysm's CS cooldown gave in upward of 5 chances to fish for a proc, which at 20% wasn't unreasonable. MoP's CS cooldown gives you 3 chances to fish for a proc, at the same 20% proc rate, the 4th chance would line up with when AS came off cooldown normally. That's entirely subjective, of course. With how the rotation plays out currently, I don't find myself getting overly excited to see a GC proc, compared to Live. But that in itself could be indicative of another issue with the ability.
Valleri - Frostwolf
Yelena
 
Posts: 356
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2009 4:54 am
Location: Behind the Eight Ball

Re: Beta tank set ups and initial thoughts:

Postby lakhesis » Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:01 am

I'm not massively thrilled by the new rotation so far. I just kinda liked the metronomic nature of the recent incarnations of the prot rotation. I don't really regard FCFS rotations as any more exciting, they just require marginally more attention and/or an addon to follow blindly (eww). Excitement comes from trade-offs between abilities/dpct/buff interaction/etc, and currently there isn't much.

At present, on a dummy, I'm seeing (unglyphed) Frisbee doing about 7k, Judgment doing about 7k and Crusader Strike doing about 6.5k. Then there's Consecrate doing about 4k over its duration and Holy Wrath doing about 5k. Unglyphed ShoR is doing about 9k, but as it's off gcd is predominantly only relevant as an incentive to get HoPow (either for "free" extra damage or for survival purposes).

Our only proc to watch for is Grand Crusader, beyond that it just seems:

(HoPow Gen > unproc'd Frisbee) >> (HoWrath > Consecrate)

The only burst potential is wings, potions, trinkets, or your choice of level 75 talent.

I miss Inquisition and Sacred Duty already. Probably there are other good ways of adding variety, but at present our damage output just seems... flat. I'm no longer looking ahead in my rotation or watching buffs. The mitigation of block vs wog will add some variety, but probably not a hell of a lot.

So we end up slamming our FCFS buttons and this flurry of frenzied activity produces very similar output regardless of which ability it is you're pressing next. It's just two tiers of damage & whether the ability generates finisher points, with a bunch of activity purely for the sake of activity. There's no pay-off or crescendo at any point.

Glyphing Frisbee but not ShoR would produce some potential variation, but I have difficulty thinking of a situation where you'd be prepared to prio the extra damage of glyphed frisbee over HoPow generation without also being prepared to glyph ShoR.

I probably just need more time to play with it, possibly it's just a matter of what point my scaling is at right now, but I'm really not convinced atm. I want something that goes "bam" and gets my attention.
When society says jump, we say pass the salt.
lakh's armory
User avatar
lakhesis
 
Posts: 166
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2007 5:02 pm
Location: oz

Re: Beta tank set ups and initial thoughts:

Postby Yelena » Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:05 am

I wouldn't worry about numbers too much yet, they're likely to change several times before the beta is done. Glyphs aren't finished yet either, case in point the Alabaster Shield glyph is already going to see a change in the next patch. Holy Wrath will auto-change (sort of) into being an execute ability, with the new glyph (replacement) that's coming up, as well.

The current Live rotation is arguably the easiest of the tanks, next to DKs (3 button rotation ftw?), and is monotonous to no end. Hitting CS every 3 seconds is a terrible design, and offers very little variability to the rotation, but it was essentially a band aid quick fix to address the gaps in the rotation. It's even worse now, since threat is meaningless after about 5 seconds (if that). I'm obviously in the camp of "the great threat nerf" being quite unnecessary, so my opinion is obviously colored to match that. We also have the option of talenting into another proc to watch for (Divine Purpose), which in practice feels like it procs more frequently than Grand Crusader (and tends to proc in streaks). Honestly that makes the rotation a lot more interesting than it is otherwise (and far more interesting than it is on Live).

Divine Guardian being gone is somewhat annoying, since Warriors retain Rallying Cry (albeit still mutually exclusive with Last Stand), and DKs of any spec have the option to pick up AMZ. A thought regarding that would be to make Divine Guardian available as a talent, perhaps replace Clemency with it (as Clemency is pretty much the red-headed step child of the entire Paladin talent tree, outside of extreme situations). That would present more of a choice in that tier of talents then.

Sacred Duty is probably best left gone. Considering the overall rate of Holy Power generation on Beta, we're given the (illusion of) choice to use SotR a lot more frequently than we do on Live currently. Given that, guaranteed critical hits would make the ability overbalanced, which would subsequently be nerfed baseline to compensate; the general reaction from the players would be to use it far less frequently than intended (recall the great WoG nerf last year).

Inquisition (or the lack thereof) I have mixed feelings about, I'd prefer we had a legitimate AoE finisher (a la Divine Storm) instead. Inquisition made for a poor "AoE finisher" for Prot, since it led to many of us using that on single targets, as a 30% buff to all of our holy damage added up to more than another SotR in many cases. We already have access to several AoE tools (which don't blow half a mana bar to use now), so the necessity for a true AoE finisher is subjective at best.
Valleri - Frostwolf
Yelena
 
Posts: 356
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2009 4:54 am
Location: Behind the Eight Ball

Re: Beta tank set ups and initial thoughts:

Postby Lieris » Fri Apr 06, 2012 12:47 pm

I really hope that Divine Guardian being removed is just a beta related bug. It would be just weird to take that out while retaining Rallying Cry and giving Brewmasters Avert Harm, Meditation and Ox Statue.
Lieris
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 2181
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 7:49 am

Re: Beta tank set ups and initial thoughts:

Postby theckhd » Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:12 pm

Lieris wrote:I really hope that Divine Guardian being removed is just a beta related bug. It would be just weird to take that out while retaining Rallying Cry and giving Brewmasters Avert Harm, Meditation and Ox Statue.


Actually, I hope they just take Rallying cry and the rest of the raid-wide cooldowns out. They're a major balance problem in progression.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 8030
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Beta tank set ups and initial thoughts:

Postby Treck » Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:40 pm

The real problem with that is that rallying cry is available for warriors of all speccs.
It would be "ok" if it was warrior tank specific.
Atleast for the warrior vs paladin issue.
But then DKs and Druids are left out, and its either give all tanks CDs, or none.
User avatar
Treck
 
Posts: 2129
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:10 am

Re: Beta tank set ups and initial thoughts:

Postby Yelena » Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:00 pm

Blood DKs have access to Anti-magic Zone by form of a talent. I'd prefer they simply got rid of all raid cooldowns, but so long as they remain available (or baseline) to some classes, it's going to cause issues. Raid cooldowns should really be an "all or nothing" thing; either get rid of them all, or don't get rid of any.

There's already enough of a disparity between the "power" dump abilities available to the tanks (Shield Block / Shield Barrier / Shield of the Righteous vs. Savage Defense), there doesn't need to be a disparity (bigger than what already exists) with raid cooldowns as well.
Valleri - Frostwolf
Yelena
 
Posts: 356
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2009 4:54 am
Location: Behind the Eight Ball

Re: Beta tank set ups and initial thoughts:

Postby Mukat » Fri Apr 06, 2012 6:07 pm

I copied my druid over and played on the dummy a while and discovered you could keep frenzied regeneration up constantly. That felt awesome. Granted I barely knew what I was doing for the rotation.
Mukat
 
Posts: 237
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 11:30 pm

Re: Beta tank set ups and initial thoughts:

Postby Lieris » Fri Apr 06, 2012 6:26 pm

Treck wrote:either give all tanks CDs, or none.


I agree with this.

Personally I like the idea of them, they just need to be implemented properly and be exclusive to tank specs.
Lieris
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 2181
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 7:49 am

Re: Beta tank set ups and initial thoughts:

Postby KysenMurrin » Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:09 am

Ghostcrawler on some upcoming changes:
2) We agree with the feedback that warriors, and to a lesser extent paladins, aren't getting enough out of their block abilities (Shield Block and SotR). We erred on the side of making them forgiving so that tanks wouldn't worry about splatting if they failed to use one of those attacks, but we think now we were too conservative, to the point that they don't feel (to use a word many posters have used) visceral. You should notice a change in incoming damage when you use these abilities. So we are trying the following changes. Let us know how they feel.

The next iteration of Shield Block we are going to try is that it blocks ALL attacks for 6 sec. Furthermore, those blocks have a chance to become critical blocks, which keeps mastery relevant.
We think Shield of the Righteous needs less tweaking since it already has a damage component; it is noticeable when it gets used. However, to make sure it also provides survivability, the initial automatic block will reduce 75% of damage while any subsequent blocks during the 6 sec duration will block for 50% of damage. (A normal block is 30%.) Those numbers are subject to iteration, but again the idea is that mastery will still affect SotR's mitigation.
We also agree that the Guardian druid combination of mastery and Savage Defense feels too passive in comparison with the plate tanks. We are going to change Savage Defense to a chance to avoid damage, which gives it more parity with say the warrior. The warrior has a reliable block, but a more random mastery, while the druid has a reliable mastery, with a more random "block." To partially offset this change, Frenzied Regen will do all of its healing instantly.

[...]

4) We also understand that long-term Protection warriors aren't yet feeling that frenetic, button mashy playstyle with which they have become familiar. We are experimenting with a new proc, currently called Ultimatum, in which Devastate has a chance to make the next Heroic Strike or Cleave free. We don't want to return Devastate to Sword and Board however. Shield Slam (and therefore Sword and Board) provide rage, which is a mitigation resource now. Having Devastate lead to better mitigation would mean you had to prioritize the no-cooldown Devastate above other attacks such as Storm Bolt. Hopefully the Ultimatum implementation will deliver that "fish for procs" feeling of the old Sword and Board, while giving offtanks a more dynamic rotation (since they can't rely on Revenge).

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic ... ?page=4#63
Rallying Cry and Last Stand no longer share a cooldown. You can use Rallying Cry to help the raid or to help yourself as a mini Last Stand.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic ... ?page=4#71
Temporarily playing WoW again.
Donnan - Nangun - Kysen - Kysen - Mardun - Timkins

Mostly-Book Blog.
KysenMurrin
 
Posts: 7100
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:37 am
Location: UK

PreviousNext

Return to Mists of Pandaria Beta

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest