Hearthstone

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Re: Hearthstone

Postby KysenMurrin » Mon Apr 14, 2014 1:59 pm

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Re: Hearthstone

Postby Kai » Mon Apr 14, 2014 2:29 pm

ancient watcher isn't THAT bad, you already have one enabler. I've ended up with angry chicken and whisp in decks before as well. :(
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Re: Hearthstone

Postby KysenMurrin » Mon Apr 14, 2014 2:30 pm

I actually ended up with a Defender of Argus and a Spellbreaker, so not so bad.

Anyway, after that run I finally crafted Baron Geddon for my Warrior deck. (Removed Wild Pyromancer, 1 Cleave, and Sylvanas, put Geddon in and restored the two Frothing Berserkers.)

Lots more legendaries to go, still. And I'm still cannibalising a lot of the class cards to make them, so my collection's pretty bare.
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Re: Hearthstone

Postby Skye1013 » Mon Apr 14, 2014 9:57 pm

Opened up the freebie packs I received for D3: RoS and got Antonidas... playing against bots, he seems pretty broken, but I could see him being a quick target for removal against an actual player.
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Re: Hearthstone

Postby Kai » Mon Apr 14, 2014 11:20 pm

he's fine, but yeah, you don't get to untap with him. if you go second, you can cast him turn 7, use the coin and cast a 1 mana spell, arcane missles or the two 0/2 taunts. then both the coin (counts as a spell) and the 1 mana spell trigger him and give you a fireball. that's typically as good as it gets. games where you cast him and untap with him, you are generally going to win anyway, even if that was just a war golem instead.
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Re: Hearthstone

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:42 am

The problem with Antonidas is you have to drop a few low cost spells into your deck for him to be worth playing, which can limit the effectiveness of the rest of the deck. He's good when he works, but can be a case where he only works if you're already winning.


In other news, this was an amazing arena deck. It only got me 10 wins, but it could have got me 12 if I'd maybe played a little better.
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Re: Hearthstone

Postby jere » Thu Apr 17, 2014 11:10 am

For those of you asleep the last couple of days, Hearthstone is available in the US on IPad now. My wife is ecstatic.
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Re: Hearthstone

Postby Sagara » Thu Apr 17, 2014 11:58 am

Haven't tried logging on, but it seems also available on EU.
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Re: Hearthstone

Postby Kai » Fri Apr 18, 2014 12:17 am

went into a medium-sized rage yesterday due to how HS handles silence effects and damage. guess I am just too used to magic rules, but it just seems ridiculous to me:

opponent plays druid of the claw, 4/6 taunt.
I earth shock it to 4/5 no taunt. he kills some totem with it next turn and puts a shattered sun cleric +1+1 on it.
so it's now 5/6 (would be 5/7, but 1 dmg from earth shock).
I silence the 5/6. what does it go?
naturally 4/6. the 1 dmg just gets 'silenced off' as the silence removes only +1+0 and not the full +1+1. seems completely counter-intuitive to me ...
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Re: Hearthstone

Postby Nooska » Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:29 am

Kai wrote:went into a medium-sized rage yesterday due to how HS handles silence effects and damage. guess I am just too used to magic rules, but it just seems ridiculous to me:

opponent plays druid of the claw, 4/6 taunt.
I earth shock it to 4/5 no taunt. he kills some totem with it next turn and puts a shattered sun cleric +1+1 on it.
so it's now 5/6 (would be 5/7, but 1 dmg from earth shock).
I silence the 5/6. what does it go?
naturally 4/6. the 1 dmg just gets 'silenced off' as the silence removes only +1+0 and not the full +1+1. seems completely counter-intuitive to me ...

That would be because it was at less tahn full health, when you silence off health, it takes it from the top, and only reduces health if the current health is over the max health.
Buffing an injured minion with + health, just acts like a heal for current health, and increases max health. I don't see how the game could handle it any other way, without letting you kill with a silence, after reducing health by the cards facevalue of health, and then silencing effects (would make silence too powerful).
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Re: Hearthstone

Postby Kai » Fri Apr 18, 2014 2:06 am

well, that would be logical to me. If i have a 5/5 and put a +5+5 buff on it. then it takes 5 dmg. if the +5+5 gets removed, why wouldn't it be dead then? 5 health, took 5 dmg. seems dead to me.
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Re: Hearthstone

Postby KysenMurrin » Fri Apr 18, 2014 2:15 am

So you think it should apply buffs to the bottom, not the top?

I think silence effectively dealing damage would be counterintuitive. The way health changes after removal of a buff can be a bit annoying sometimes (mostly when it's one minion's aura buffing another), but it's pretty consistent. Health buffs increase max health. In order to make them useful for more than just Priests, they also effectively heal for that amount. Silencing a health buff just removes the extra max health.

The one bit that's slightly less intuitive is how it treats health debuffs - removing Equality returns a minion to full health. But I guess that's actually consistent with the idea that when you increase max health, you also increase current health.
Last edited by KysenMurrin on Fri Apr 18, 2014 2:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hearthstone

Postby Kai » Fri Apr 18, 2014 2:23 am

how does silence deal dmg? if you have a 4/4 with blessing of kings, so 8/8. i fireball it. then silcene it. the fireball dealt the dmg. the way it's set up right now the damage magically disappears when the buff is removed. as if the fireball targeted the blessing of kings. all similar card game i've played treat this differently, but then in those damage doesn't stick to creatures and gets cleared at the end of a step/turn, so it's not really comparable, I guess.
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Re: Hearthstone

Postby Sagara » Fri Apr 18, 2014 2:24 am

KysenMurrin wrote:So you think it should apply buffs to the bottom, not the top?

I think silence effectively dealing damage would be counterintuitive.


It's a question of perception - is the bonus Health lost first or last? If you look at Diablo or WoW or somesuch, Blizz has always had the same idea of "Bonus Health goes out first".

Magic, D&D and World of Darkness are worked up the other way around - think about a barbarian's rage - his bonus Health is always removed when the rage ends, so it's actually possible for the Barbarian to survive until his rage subsides. SAme think with werewolves in WoD.

It's consistent for Blizzard, it's just unusual in the hobby as a whole.

And yeah there's also the "minions don't regen between turns" that's a huge change compared to other CCG's. Minions tend to blow up extremely fast in HS.
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Re: Hearthstone

Postby KysenMurrin » Fri Apr 18, 2014 2:37 am

Wasn't expecting such fast replies - was busy adding to my post there.

It seems like you're treating the buffs as a separate thing from the minion itself. In Hearthstone the buff itsn't a distinct thing you have to damage or remove - it's an increase in the minion's max health.

I suppose when you have cards on a table, they need to be treated as separate things. In this digital game, you can directly modify the minions themselves, so it's treated differently. The card is used up by applying the buff, rather than being an active card on the board to be removed.
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Re: Hearthstone

Postby Kai » Fri Apr 18, 2014 2:47 am

that has nothing to do with my argument. obviously the minion is modified and there's no card attached to it. that's the same in magic. some cards stick to the card, others add counters. but the card sticking to the minion only serves as a reminder so you know what's going on.

but obviously hearthstone remembers quite well what modification took place, it's not just altering the minions stats and it's permanent then. if i silence a BoK off, it very well remembers to remove exactly those 4 power added. but why does it only remove 1,2 or 3 health, depending on how much dmg it took? if you hover over the minion, it also sais very clearly how it got modified. now a silence effect logically would remove the entire modification and not 'if that happened, then remove this part, if that happened, then we remove that part'.
Just doesn't make any logical sense to me whatsoever.
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Re: Hearthstone

Postby Sagara » Fri Apr 18, 2014 2:58 am

Think of it this way: Take a 1/1 minion:

Health: X
Damage: .

On whom a BoK is applied:

Health Bar: XXXXX
Damage Bar: .....

Let's say you hit it with Frostbolt - where do you put the damage?

Magic's method:
Health: XXXXX
Damage: XXX..

Blizzard's method:
Health: XXXXX
Damage: ..XXX

When the BoK is removed, you delete the last four boxes off the minion's Health

Magic's method:
Health: XXXXX
Damage: XXX..

Blizzard's method:
Health: XXXXX
Damage: ..XXX

It's logical, in a way - you don't deal damage to the last and most critical health point first. You start in the safe, end part of your health. If you did a bit of management, it's similar to the concept of FiFo vs LiFo.
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Re: Hearthstone

Postby jere » Fri Apr 18, 2014 8:19 am

It actually feels pretty intuitive for me. I see it as the "max health" stat was increased and that silence removes the buff "max health increased", but that doesn't affect "current health" which is just a minion "state". I realize it is pretty subjective though. I don't see it as one stat, but two (current and max) and silence only affects the part that the buff applies to.
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Re: Hearthstone

Postby Jabari » Mon Apr 21, 2014 11:30 pm

So what in the world is the person with a Golden Velen, ALL OF THE GIANTS, Rag, etc, doing at rank 15 down with me and my scrubby non-collection just trying to do dailies? There really needs to be a "go away" or "c'mon man, really?" emote. :(

(And I still nearly got him, even though his Rag lived for like 3 turns and his Velen did for about 6.)

Ugh. Oh well. At least I got to be amused by a different guy killing himself with Holy Fire (had a Soulpriest out - whoops!)

Hey Kysen - what does your current Shaman deck look like? I'm actually at the point where I have most of that stuff (and about 400 dust to craft a missing rare or two). The rest of my decks are pretty junky, though I have a mid-range beast hunter that's kinda fun too (Highmanes are awesome).

Arena is still ridiculously hard, too. Got a 6-3 the other day and I was just about jumping for joy on that, best I've done in a while (and I was consistantly getting 7s before, very frustrating now).
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Re: Hearthstone

Postby Schroom » Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:04 am

Jabari wrote:So what in the world is the person with a Golden Velen, ALL OF THE GIANTS, Rag, etc, doing at rank 15 down with me and my scrubby non-collection just trying to do dailies?


it's the meta. control decks can be pretty bashed atm and lose ranks amazingly fast.

take my control warrior here: http://hearthstats.net/decks/ctrl--7

on friday night I got bashed so hard, 18 losses in a row. to aggro (Huntards, Zoolocks, Shamans)

I fellt pretty terrible and dropped down to rank 15...
on Saturday I built myself a new druid deck to counter those aggro decks (http://hearthstats.net/decks/out-of-my-forest-anti-aggro). and it went amazing so far. > 70% win rate and back up to rank 9.
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Re: Hearthstone

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Apr 22, 2014 12:17 am

Anyone know what decks can beat Zoo Warlock? My best decks are Control Warrior and Druid, and neither of those seem to be able to win against it more than 20% of the time. Really getting sick of seeing it - it's every other match. I'm stuck in rank 10.

Jabari - I haven't really touched my Shaman deck since I last posted about it here. I'm thinking about trying it out again, given the way my laddering's been going. With lots of taunt, and Lightning Storm, it could be good against zoo. Though I might have to fit Earth Shock back in for the divine shields.

And lots of big minions doesn't mean a deck is good. Priest can be brutal or it can be a complete loss, it's not consistent enough to climb the ranks well. They also tend to have weak early game, which would let a Warlock or Hunter get an advantage.
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Re: Hearthstone

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:31 am

I might try it like this:

Ancestral Healing x 2
Earth Shock x 2
Lightning Bolt x 2
Rockbiter Weapon x 2
Stormforged Axe x 1
Ancient Watcher x 2
Bloodmage Thalnos
Feral Spirit x 2
Hex x 2
Lightning Storm x 2
Injured Blademaster x 2
Defender of Argus x 2
Spellbreaker x 1
Azure Drake x 2
Gadgetzan Auctioneer x 2
Fire Elemental x 2
Al'akir the Windlord

Removed Windfury and 1x Spellbreaker, put back in the 2x Earth Shock. Should help deal with the Argent Squires and Scarlet Crusaders in Zoo decks.

Haven't tried it yet, though - it does reduce the ability to silence the Ancient Watchers, which could weaken the deck.
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Re: Hearthstone

Postby Kai » Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:41 am

- aggressive rogue
basically the same neutral minion shell that the aggressive warlock deck uses, but the warlock hero power is bad in such a matchup. backstab and the 007 agent along with deadly poison are also better then anything they have.
- hunter
both the midrange beast and the super aggressive hunter are great. zoo wants to overload the board. unleash the hounds is the single best card against that deck out there right now. also, again, both hunter decks render the warlock hero power pretty much useless.

the old control druid deck with ancient watchers etc is also ok. especially if you play claw as well. if you have some early removal, the big taunts are pretty tough to deal with.
obviously if you build your deck to win that matchup, you'll end up having problems against other slow decks. all this alexstrasa, ysera stuff is terrible vs zoo.

shaman is also ok, but again, the builds that are good vs zoo, have a big problem with the slower control decks and won't ever beat control warlock (although that doesn't really seem to exist atm).
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Re: Hearthstone

Postby Worldie » Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:57 am

My random thought: it's too easy to lose ranks.

As someone said above, if you get a loss streak you can fall down by 7-8 ranks or even more. As a result, you incurr in poor "normal" people like me, who are essentially stuck at rank 15ish, because I get DEMOLISHED by people with fully legendaryed decks, with very strong 100% meta following decks, that have much higher skill than that rank since they already made it several times to top 10 ranks.
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Re: Hearthstone

Postby Schroom » Tue Apr 22, 2014 5:27 am

KysenMurrin wrote:Anyone know what decks can beat Zoo Warlock?


check out the druiddeck I posted just above your post. it destroys every aggro deck.

Worldie wrote:My random thought: it's too easy to lose ranks.


I agree, also I think since they released the game, the number of ranks is just insufficient compared to the players there are. in the old ranking system I played diamond 3 star . no problem.

when the new ranking system joined I came to rank 7-8

since release I haven't been able to pass rank 10 until this WE.

my decks improved A LOT since beta (I have almost every card now)

also aggro is too strong and should be nerfed, or control decks be buffed.

It's almost disgusting that control decks who need the be played very carefully and need almost perfect play can be destroyed by face roll aggro decks.
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