Rift

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Re: Rift!

Postby KysenMurrin » Fri Feb 18, 2011 5:24 pm

Decided to give this a try, all I knew about it was a talent tree link from this thread. Went Paladin main, of course. Lot of abilities, but half of them seem redundant.

Interesting overall, a lot like WoW in basic mechanics with a few nice touches but some annoying niggles, too. I'm not sure I like the graphical style, though.

I like the built in UI customisation, but is there any way to resize menu windows? The soul tree window covers almost the whole screen, and the rest are mostly oversize.
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Re: Rift!

Postby d503 » Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:36 pm

KysenMurrin wrote:Decided to give this a try, all I knew about it was a talent tree link from this thread. Went Paladin main, of course. Lot of abilities, but half of them seem redundant.

Interesting overall, a lot like WoW in basic mechanics with a few nice touches but some annoying niggles, too. I'm not sure I like the graphical style, though.

I like the built in UI customisation, but is there any way to resize menu windows? The soul tree window covers almost the whole screen, and the rest are mostly oversize.


Think the Soul Tree's bad now? It used to be fullscreen ><

I think they have so much data to display in it, it kinda necessitates being large.

As far as controlling the size of elements, you can select any particular menu/UI item while in the UI config and scale it up down, alpha it up or down.
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Re: Rift!

Postby KysenMurrin » Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:57 pm

I noticed that for the UI, but the only menu-type part I've been able to resize is the map. The main UI scale slider in the interface menu only seems to affect the same as the individual UI customisation settings. Character sheet fills half the screen, NPC dialogue fills a good portion, it's all much bigger than necessary.
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Re: Rift!

Postby Gracerath » Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:05 pm

A friend of mine wrote this about the game. I haven't played it but I have no strong desire to stop playing the games I currently play in favor of this one.

I played the beta a little bit. I may buy the full game just to play that free month.

First and foremost, it's not going to take me (or very many others) from WoW or TOR. It's just not unique enough to stand out on its own, and a small developer isn't going to be able to make the same combination of content quality and quantity that Blizzard has built itself up to do.

Despite that, the reason I may buy it for the free month is because your guildies are on to something. It's not bad at all. It feels like a prettier, more polished Warhammer (not surprising, since it uses the same engine). The level of fantasy gets kind of ridiculous (takes itself very seriously), but that's not really a bad thing, and the zones I played all had neat little flavor things going on, like a sprawling hamlet under attack.

The class system is exceptionally interesting, and also a big reason why I think the game is going to fail miserably. The closest I can think to describe what I experienced is like trying to play a tri-class in D&D. For all intents and purposes, you have three character classes at the same time. Each of those classes has a branching talent tree similar to WoW's, but larger. Each class also has skills/spells tied to it, which you earn by placing points in the talent tree. So like, after I put my first two points into the Reaver tree, I might unlock the second Reaver ability, let's say a Cleave. A few more points and I'll unlock the next ability, etc. I'm pretty sure the game has no class trainers and no need for them, since these skills are learned right then and there, and you're given talent points with every level up (but I dunno, maybe you need to train later on).

It's pretty sweet, I can see having a lot of fun playing around with it, but the system has two fundamental flaws: 1) it's intimidatingly convoluted and 2) it's impossible to balance against that amount of freedom. Number 1 doesn't mean much for you or me, but it means the game's success is always going to be limited, because the barrier of entry is just going to be too much for the casual gamers that really drive WoW's success. Limited success means limited funds means limited support, etc. Not saying they can't be successful (EVE is way more complex, and is arguably a huge hit), but it's already going to be an uphill battle.

And #2 is what kills me. Search the rift-specific wiki enough and you'll probably come across the quotes from the development team being classy and up front and saying that due to the level of freedom, it will definitely be possible to create a "dud" character build; a poor combination of classes and/or skills. PvE content balance is already difficult. Because it's not just about balancing a fight for a tank/healer/dps, it's balancing it for a group that inherently is going to be a subset of the classes available, and making sure that a warrior tank with a druid healer isn't always going to be better than a paladin tank with a priest healer, etc. This is part of why Blizzard has been revered for so long, years before WoW, because their RTS games were so well balanced while still keeping factions relatively unique. So I feel like the Rift devs - who are a small studio - are setting themselves up to fall into the Champions Online trap of the freedom being an illusion, and really there only being a handful of viable combinations out there. Because the only alternative is that they make a LOT of builds viable, and then what happens is the min/maxers discover the best ones (there are always best ones) and suddenly they breeze through all the content because that content was balanced so that shittier builds could also win.

So basically, I'm afraid that the coolest and most original aspect of their game will end up boiling down to being pretty much the same as WoW, just with a lot of convoluted trial and error to get there. Of course, I'm always pretty skeptical, so maybe they'll shatter expectations and pull off something that's never been done before.

Oh, and I didn't think the actual Rift mechanic was actually that great, but I'm definitely in the minority for that
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Re: Rift!

Postby KysenMurrin » Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:03 am

Welp, I wasplaying again today and a massive invasion of the 10-20 area happened. At first it was fun, and I got a lot of xp defeating invaders, but then it dragged on, and on, and on, until eventually I just felt drained and didn't want to keep going. Don't think I could have really gone back to questing for a break, either, because there were invasion forces all over the map.
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Re: Rift!

Postby bldavis » Sat Feb 19, 2011 9:36 pm

KysenMurrin wrote:Welp, I wasplaying again today and a massive invasion of the 10-20 area happened. At first it was fun, and I got a lot of xp defeating invaders, but then it dragged on, and on, and on, until eventually I just felt drained and didn't want to keep going. Don't think I could have really gone back to questing for a break, either, because there were invasion forces all over the map.

i got to teh point where i see a invasion happening and i just log out

i am about ready to say screw it, and uninstalling it
i personally think they are overdoing the rift/invasion mechanic
if they had a major incvasion like once every other day or every three days, ya it would be fun and would feel like we are acomplishing something, but now i logged in during one the other night, finally beat it back, took a bio, and when i got back to teh computer, the next invasion was happening... :shock:

said screw that, logged and went to bed
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Re: Rift!

Postby Eltiana » Sat Feb 19, 2011 10:05 pm

bldavis wrote:
KysenMurrin wrote:Welp, I wasplaying again today and a massive invasion of the 10-20 area happened. At first it was fun, and I got a lot of xp defeating invaders, but then it dragged on, and on, and on, until eventually I just felt drained and didn't want to keep going. Don't think I could have really gone back to questing for a break, either, because there were invasion forces all over the map.

i got to teh point where i see a invasion happening and i just log out

i am about ready to say screw it, and uninstalling it
i personally think they are overdoing the rift/invasion mechanic
if they had a major incvasion like once every other day or every three days, ya it would be fun and would feel like we are acomplishing something, but now i logged in during one the other night, finally beat it back, took a bio, and when i got back to teh computer, the next invasion was happening... :shock:

said screw that, logged and went to bed

Rifts/invasion spawns have been upped for the beta. It's also based on server/area population, which are overflowing due to the fact everyone and their mother is playing due to this beta being open.
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Re: Rift!

Postby PsiVen » Sun Feb 20, 2011 1:27 am

You can actually quest during major invasions, only about 30% of your quests will be obscured directly by a Rift blocking every objective and you can join a public raid to squish it and go back about your business. I think this makes for a rather more engaging and social "solo-questing" experience.

But that's not really why this game isn't going to pull many people from WoW. It's similar in many respects to WoW Vanilla, in that it has VERY many elements in common with WoW, including most of the mistakes. There's not a whole lot of balance, polish, or endgame to speak of, which again sounds a whole lot like WoW, except that people have higher expectations now. Lessons were learned in WoW that people won't be happy to have to retread.

You may recall that there were at WoW's launch 9 different classes with 27 total talent trees. Rift has 4 classes with 32 total trees, which really isn't much more than WoW's talent system, but the more flexible system allows for a lot more subspecs beyond that. Not only is this overly ambitious and hard to balance, but it makes it almost impossible for the typical player to learn every build and how to deal with it, let alone prepare themselves against most of them. CoH had a solution for this with their system of combinable major/minor specs: years of refinement and imbalance aided by the complete lack of coherent endgame content and a community that was generally more interested in RPing an enjoyable character than min/maxing it. CoH also used highly stylized graphics and flashy powers that made it fairly obvious what 'style' someone was, while Rift uses muted pseudorealistic spell effects and doesn't even tell you what class the person you're targeting is (the color of their power bar tells you rogue, warrior, or cleric/mage).

The interface has huge quality-of-life issues that have been written off as fixable by addons post-release in whatever patch they get around to implementing an API. It's "customizable" in that you can move stuff around or scale it up to look awful, but nobody who enjoys a highly custom UI in WoW will be at home here. Forced high-latency-mode spell queuing, no nameplates or names anywhere, and lack of even basic selection circles under your target combine for a messy, hard-to-read combat scenario that makes tanking a nightmare. You also must use the 'cast on keypress instead of key release' feature because the latter is broken and forces you to hold down modifiers until the server registers the command.

Speaking of mistakes from Vanilla, there's already a weird offspec-hybrid tank spec poised to get shit on as the odd man out. It's called the Riftstalker and it's basically a tank spec for rogues so that dungeon groups will have more tanking options, but it's based on rogue mechanics, not the ones that drive the 4 warrior tanking souls. Getting up the 30% armor, 5% miss, 5% dodge/parry, 15% damage reduction buffs required to get on par with the "real" tanks take a full 5-combo-point finishing move each and which means a good 36 seconds to wind up -- in fact all of your finishers are dedicated to buffing you in this way, and last just long enough that you have to keep refreshing each. You also inherently have less HP, but receive 30% bonus healing.

Another big problem is that a huge segment of the Rift community seems to be people who quit WoW because they were disgusted with WotLK, and a large portion of newcomers will be people who quit WoW because they're disgusted with Cataclysm. The forums are already a cesspool full of people airing their common hatred of all things Warcraft and utterly violating any thread that dares mention it in a positive light. Every major missing feature suggested is shot down immediately with we don't want easymode / this isn't WoW / don't make us do math / why would we want to know information.

But I'm not going to continue ranting against a game where people are enjoying it, I just wanted to drop off my thoughts somewhere. I hope you guys have fun while it lasts.
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Re: Rift!

Postby Vanifae » Sun Feb 20, 2011 2:23 am

I agree with PsiVen, hope people enjoy it though.
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Re: Rift!

Postby KysenMurrin » Sun Feb 20, 2011 3:29 am

PsiVen wrote:The interface has huge quality-of-life issues that have been written off as fixable by addons post-release in whatever patch they get around to implementing an API. It's "customizable" in that you can move stuff around or scale it up to look awful, but nobody who enjoys a highly custom UI in WoW will be at home here. Forced high-latency-mode spell queuing, no nameplates or names anywhere, and lack of even basic selection circles under your target combine for a messy, hard-to-read combat scenario that makes tanking a nightmare. You also must use the 'cast on keypress instead of key release' feature because the latter is broken and forces you to hold down modifiers until the server registers the command.

I'm guessing you must have seen it in an earlier build - Names are there, and can be turned always on or only on mouseover/selection (and have the same options as wow for which characters show names); nameplates showing health/power/combo points pop up above heads automatically in combat (though unfortunately they're not the clickable kind, I don't think - maybe that's what you meant); and targetting circles are in now. I think you can change the settings on the spell queuing, but that might just be to make it queue even earlier.

The biggest issue I have with this kind of thing is that it's actually a pain to target something - it seems like if there are players and spell effects around a mob, you have to be lucky to click on the right spot at the right time. Not being able to select by clicking the nameplate makes it worse.
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Re: Rift!

Postby Loras » Sun Feb 20, 2011 9:23 pm

PsiVen wrote:.

I second that. And yes, there are targeting circles now, and nameplates, but first, the nameplate (or shall we say, threat/dps/whateverplate) shows up only for the target you're attacking. And let's put it this way (as a tank in WoW and a tank in Rift) - without nameplates exposed, I'm "game over" :) And it's godawful that interrupts don't lock the school out. What's the point to interrupt when he will recast the spell right away... Without addons it'll take lots of effort to make a UI that will do all the things it needs to. Combat text is too small compared to the rest of the UI, nameplates are too small, enemy cast bars are bad, etc etc.

And biggest concern is endgame. I appreciate Rift fans trying to defend it and saying "we haven't seen it yet, I'm sure it'll be great, don't make fast and wrong conclusions" etc, but come on, open your eyes, enter a capital city and browse the random vendors. Badge gear, 50-100+ badges per item piece, badges are obtained from heroic instances. And that's one of the reasons I got so bored from WoW - ever since they introduced the badge system in TBC, they are sticking to it like a hungry dog to a bone... Doing the same old cycle, for every character you have (I'm not a PvP player, so I'm stuck with PvE :) ), for years and years, just gets incredibly monotonous, and Blizzard doesnt seem to think that's a problem. On the other hand, I just won't pay and switch to just another absolutely similar grind, with different textures... Quests + dungeons to get Rep, buy gear with Rep, use that gear + quest rewards to get in heroics, farm heroics like crazy for badges, use badges to get gear, get enough gear to enter a raid, and then just keep going on. Rifts are no difference, they just drop more "badges" from a different kind. Why, TRION, why :(
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Re: Rift!

Postby Levantine » Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:02 pm

On the bright side, I'm finding my Stormcaller and Blade Dancer fucktons of fun. I'm more engaged with my character than I have been in WoW since BC. If I ever get bored of them I can try out being a Marksman or Bard or Chloromancer or Warlock or Necromancer with the exact same characters. \o/
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Re: Rift!

Postby Skye1013 » Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:28 am

Levantine wrote:On the bright side, I'm finding my Stormcaller and Blade Dancer fucktons of fun. I'm more engaged with my character than I have been in WoW since BC. If I ever get bored of them I can try out being a Marksman or Bard or Chloromancer or Warlock or Necromancer with the exact same characters. \o/


Ok, so my friend (mentioned in the frustrations thread) is playing an Archon/Chloromancer/Dominator. He says there is a ton of micro-managing, but when done correctly, it makes for an awesome combo.

As far as the Marksman or Chloromancer etc. Don't you have to have at least the four base classes (mage/priest/rogue/warrior) for some of those... or can you switch the base class of your character? Kind of like FFXI, which I thought was pretty awesome to be able to level all the classes on one character, though there were a lot of annoyances to be had with the leveling system itself. And there was the ever apparent need for MOAR BAG SPACE!!1!11!!
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Re: Rift!

Postby Levantine » Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:46 am

Two characters for two callings, but levelling isn't exactly hard in this game so it's not that much effort.
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Re: Rift!

Postby Vanifae » Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:03 am

Loras wrote:And biggest concern is endgame. I appreciate Rift fans trying to defend it and saying "we haven't seen it yet, I'm sure it'll be great, don't make fast and wrong conclusions" etc, but come on, open your eyes, enter a capital city and browse the random vendors. Badge gear, 50-100+ badges per item piece, badges are obtained from heroic instances. And that's one of the reasons I got so bored from WoW - ever since they introduced the badge system in TBC, they are sticking to it like a hungry dog to a bone... Doing the same old cycle, for every character you have (I'm not a PvP player, so I'm stuck with PvE :) ), for years and years, just gets incredibly monotonous, and Blizzard doesnt seem to think that's a problem. On the other hand, I just won't pay and switch to just another absolutely similar grind, with different textures... Quests + dungeons to get Rep, buy gear with Rep, use that gear + quest rewards to get in heroics, farm heroics like crazy for badges, use badges to get gear, get enough gear to enter a raid, and then just keep going on. Rifts are no difference, they just drop more "badges" from a different kind. Why, TRION, why :(

Well then what do you suggest would be a better method of gear acquisition?
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