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Re: FFXIV New Trailer and Open Beta

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Sep 14, 2010 2:25 pm

Ok, but saying it is "harder" doesn't explain why it is not for me as someone who has only played WoW. The reason I stopped playing during that initial session when I was trying to get into it was because I was not given anything to do next after that first quest. Is that considered "difficulty"? If so then I agree, this game is definitely not for me. The initial cutscenes and stuff definitely gave me the impressions that there is a story to be followed here, but it then failed to continue delivering.
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Re: FFXIV New Trailer and Open Beta

Postby Thalia » Tue Sep 14, 2010 2:31 pm

Oh sorry ><

That's one thing peeps complained about is people aren't intuitively pointed towards what to do next. Which they are working on, plus there are community outlets out there for you to find out from.

Also, they limited what was available in game in open beta, probably to not spoil the game.

They have said as you level up there will be more and more leves available to you that are rare and continue the story, aside from the missions you do to progress the story, and then the quests you get form NPC's to evolve the story more.

There is also crafting, y ou can spend tons and tons of time learning to craft, in this game you can be all crafts and all gathering classes. So when you have your char up high and want some great new gear, maybe focus on your crafter to make yourself some cool stuff.

There is fishing which is fun too.

I suppose you will have to go talk to many npc's to find out which give quests and stuff.

Also there are these things called...behest? I think, its like random events that happen out in the quest areas and people have to race to complete them, kinda like public quests.

Guildleves of course, they are reducing the cool down on them, so i think it will be like 24 hours probably, they said they where reducing them "significantly". Not sure if they are raising the limit either, as of now you can do 16, 8 regional and 8 crafting or whatever.

They are adding PvP and world battles too.

Another fun thing they had which WoW also has is they had seasonal events, always fun.

When you run out of that to do, you can always go harvest, or just go try and kill stuff without leves, or party up with someone who has a leve.
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Re: FFXIV New Trailer and Open Beta

Postby Melathys » Tue Sep 14, 2010 2:40 pm

I don't think there was any more story to get to in the beta. after that its just running around, doing leves and crafting. for retail I'm sure there's much more to do with the quests.

I think what I'm trying to get at is wow is more instant gratification, and ffxi/v you have to work at it a bit more. kinda like, a difficult boss in wow gets nerfed, in ffxi, they just leave it, and not really care if no one can beat it, lol. Though for Absolute Virtue, they did post a vid of their team beating the boss, because after a year or so no one had yet figured it out (they still didn't nerf the boss)

i dunno, its just that these games aren't really all that noob friendly I suppose. In wow, you can jump in, have a toon at max level in a week, and a week later have gear on par with players who've been playing for years. Thats just not possible in ffxi. (can't really speak for ffxiv yet, lol) I think I took almost a year to get my first character in ffxi to 75 (the level cap at the time)

*edit
but yea, if you're worried about story, don't be. thats one thing I always liked about ffxi over wow, in that there seems to be more emphasis on rpg than mmo.
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Re: FFXIV New Trailer and Open Beta

Postby Chicken » Tue Sep 14, 2010 2:45 pm

It's actually kind of interesting. Many of the reasons I see you listing for why you find FFXIV a better game than WoW are the same reasons why I'd consider the opposite to be true. I find systems like that get in the way of my enjoyment, as opposed to enhancing it, and I was quite happy to find that WoW actually had less of these systems than other MMOs I'd played when I started playing WoW (And to an even greater extent now considering I started back in classic).

Just goes to show you can't argue taste really.
Last edited by Chicken on Tue Sep 14, 2010 2:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: FFXIV New Trailer and Open Beta

Postby Chunes » Tue Sep 14, 2010 2:48 pm

Is there any measure in the game to prevent "leve-chaining"? I mean, assuming you and n friends played together, religiously, that would effectively up the individual leve limit from 16 per day, to 16n :o. You'd just have one person on the leve at any one time, start the party, do the leve, have the next person get the leve, start party, do the leve... etc.

What the leve system to me feels like is what WoW would be like if there were nothing but daily quests available and those quests were capped at 16 per day. Yeah, they award some rockin' xp, but once you're done with them, you have to find something else to do.

I'm stuck in the WoW paradigm, QUESTQUESTQUESTQUEST->HEROICHEROICHEROICHEROIC->RAIDRAIDRAIDRAID->BOREDBOREDBOREDBORED.

WoW is so full of quests/carrots on sticks for heroics/raids that there's not much else to do with your time. FFXIV felt much different. Nothing's really spoon-fed to you. There's no barker in town notifying you that there's a new quest hub over in desolace that you should go check out. You have to run your happy ass around whatever continent you're on and find stuff to do, usually at the peril of pissing off some monster 5 levels higher than you that will literally 1 shot your face. Hostile.

Honestly though, the only thing keeping me from playing this game, other than the horrid interface for PC, is my addiction to WoW and a few remaining goals i have in WoW, i.e. getting as close to the individual gold cap as I can prior to Cata.
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Re: FFXIV New Trailer and Open Beta

Postby Melathys » Tue Sep 14, 2010 2:59 pm

I think that leve chaining, as you call it, is precisely what they were trying to promote with the 48 hour cooldown period. ie, you did yours, nothing else to do, so you have to find a group and help them do theirs. I would assume that there will be plenty of random quests to do as well as the leves.

what I really like though, is I go do my battle leve as a gladiator. I get points for gladiator rank 7, and also xp for my physical level, say, 13. Then I do some local leves for my smithing, and I still get points for physical level and ding 14, while my smithing is, say, 5. I go back to my gladiator rank 7 with physical level 14, and my character is stronger than when I was last a gladiator. This whole physical level and class rank thing is really neat.
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Re: FFXIV New Trailer and Open Beta

Postby Brutalicus » Tue Sep 14, 2010 3:56 pm

Thanks, Thalia, for posting that info from SQUENIX last page. A lot of that stuff goes against my beta impression, and ultimate decision to not buy the game later this month. Now I'm going to have to wait until release and ask people what they changed. On the current topic, here's another impression from a 5.5-year WoWer (with 6 months of FFXI being my only prior MMO experience):

PROS:
-The crafting. It does make you feel cool to make a good item, and it's still not too burdensome to make many small materials because most syntheses usually result in a stack of 12 or so.
-Physical level, job level. Like Methalys pointed out, if you've hit your leve limit, go craft some crap. Still makes your character stronger for the next set of leves.
-The leve limit. What, this is a good thing? Yes, it's frustrating to run out of leves to do in a matter of an hour or so, but it encourages you to make friends and party up. This is much better than getting past the starting zone in FFXI and challenging your first Valkrum Dunes rabbit, only to have it oneshot you.
-The graphics. Good God, the graphics.
-Lots of jobs to explore.
-Teleporting. No more hour-long runs to your leveling zone, and you can just party up with someone and have them teleport you to new zones. FFXI could have used this.
-Macros. Like FFXI, you can make a macro to damn near play the game for you, so you don't have to worry about bullshit like switching jobs unbinding your abilities. Just macro it!

CONS:
-The speed. Navigating the interface is like one of those nightmares where your favorite comfy ottoman is chasing you and you can't run or scream.
-The speed. It's so bad there's two entries. You can do a crossword while waiting for whatever you clicked on to happen.
-The gear. My Lancer was wearing a couch and Link-style tights for damn near 10 levels, at which point I got a tunic that wasn't ideal for Lancers. Why can't leves give you an option to choose a reward from 4 or 5 items? It's damn near impossible to upgrade your starter gear. Maybe this is just due to not many quests being open in beta.
-For the love of Christ, why can't the players jump? It would solve most of the slow character movement problem.
-Chat. It's the same as FFXI. Why not borrow from WoW and make chat channels for General, LFP, Trade, etc. Too much of the communication is left to individuals. And on this topic, let us invite people to a party/linkshell from any range. That doesn't make much sense.

Overall, depending on what they change (and by this I mean fix) with release, FFXIV could be awesome--I doubt I'd play it over WoW, but that is just my propensity to maximize my fun per second. WoW is designed to be fun no matter what you're doing. In FFXI (and FFXIV beta), you had to do tedious work to get to the next moment of fun. Despite this, if they fix the big issues like everything about the interface, then the game won't feel so much like an Asian-style MMO. And by that I mean like a job, only without the paycheck.

tl;dr: Here's a picture of me impaling Great Expectations with a sword. FFXIV is somewhere between Great Expectations (no fun, all bullshit) and WoW (all fun, minimal bullshit).
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Re: FFXIV New Trailer and Open Beta

Postby Melathys » Tue Sep 14, 2010 4:12 pm

if you do pick up retail, holler accordingly
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Re: FFXIV New Trailer and Open Beta

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Sep 14, 2010 4:23 pm

So if I don't care about crafting and just want to punch things and have a good storyline to follow, where does that leave me?
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Re: FFXIV New Trailer and Open Beta

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Sep 14, 2010 4:25 pm

Brutalicus's post was pretty informative, thanks.
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Re: FFXIV New Trailer and Open Beta

Postby Brutalicus » Tue Sep 14, 2010 4:37 pm

I'm trying to figure that out too, Sab. My guess is: we won't know till release. But I think we can bug Methalys to find out the volume of quests that open at beta and whether or not the limit on leves per 48 hours increases. Here's to hoping the storyline is good!

edit:
Methalys, your screenshots reminded me--SQUENIX should market the FFXIII/FFXIV game engine to other developers! The facial animation is amazing!
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Re: FFXIV New Trailer and Open Beta

Postby Melathys » Tue Sep 14, 2010 5:33 pm

Sabindeus wrote:So if I don't care about crafting and just want to punch things and have a good storyline to follow, where does that leave me?


like brutalicus said, this is just down to wait and see. leves are like doing dailies. sure they have a bit of a story behind them, but you really don't care, lol. I'm hoping there's plenty of npc quest lines in ffxiv, as in ffxi.

Comparing ffxi to wow, I can say that if you enjoy stories, ffxi wins (and I'm hoping I can lump ffxiv with ffxi). Every quest has cutscenes, not just one or two major quests, and only then at the end of a lengthy chain. In ffxi, there were some quests where I didn't care about the reward, I just wanted to finish the quest to finish the story. Like there was this one about a time traveling elvaan that was fascinating...and thats one of the things I really missed about ffxi while I was playing wow. Wow quests are usually little more than something to do to level up and get some gear. Most people I know don't even read the quests, they just click accept as fast as they can, lol. ffxi always felt more like an rpg than mmo to me, where wow is more mmo than rpg. ffxi you felt like your character was actually a part of the story, I never got that feeling in wow.

...butttttttt, this is coming from ffxi experience. I can only hope that this carries over into ffxiv.
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Re: FFXIV New Trailer and Open Beta

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Sep 14, 2010 6:06 pm

It's funny because I play WoW almost exclusively because of the story, and that is one of the reasons I am so excited for Cataclysm. If it weren't for Warcraft II, I wouldn't be playing WoW today. So when you denigrate WoW's story like that, it makes me wonder exactly what they were doing in FFXI that was could have possible been so much better. (As a side note, stop dissing WoW's story. :P)

Then again I am also a fan of FF games (the early ones anyway) so I know Squenix is capable of generating plot and characters that hold my interest. I am just sad that stuff is not in FFXIV beta so I could try it out.

Also Shantotto made me lol in Dissidia, so I'm sure at least something about FFXI was done right.
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Re: FFXIV New Trailer and Open Beta

Postby Melathys » Tue Sep 14, 2010 6:26 pm

ha, yea, shantotto was a character. and arujido marujido was a badass. There was a cutscene of arujido going into the yagudo fortress, alone, and facing off with the yagudo god.

and oh, I'm not saying wow doesn't have a great story (I've read all the books), it just seems that the story telling within the game is a bit lackluster. and as for your character's involvement with the story, you just feel like you're along for the ride, not an integral part of the story as in ffxi. all the quests have cutscenes to get you involved in their story, not just a page of text you may or may not read.
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Re: FFXIV New Trailer and Open Beta

Postby Eaglestrike » Tue Sep 14, 2010 6:31 pm

Thalia wrote:As per what melathys says, i think it's because WoW is so ... i don't know. Not saying this is a bad thing, but it's easy. FFXI was hard, too hard when I first played so I quit a year later when I couldn't stand deleveling so much lol (you don't de-level in ffxiv). Anyway, I think the fact that the game is more challenging makes reward feel better. Kinda like the crafting system, it's damn hard to make a good item. So many things affect it. First off you have to learn to master the crafting mini games. Then you find out some attributes affect your craft, as well as the moon. Then ... you have to figure out recipes instead of them being handed to you.

Also, they make bosses interesting. One boss in FFXI...people weren't able to beat it for like a year cuz they couldn't figure out it's weakness. It was so simple in the end too.


FFXI wasn't hard, almost nothing about it is hard. It's sluggish, it's poorly programmed, it was poorly designed. When you couldn't beat something it was OFTEN because of something OUT OF YOUR CONTROL. There was almost nothing you could possibly do about it. That's not difficulty, that's just stupid. The response from the playerbase for YEARS (and still works TO THIS DAY) was to take the slowest, sure-fire way to respond to a situation, taking absolutely no risks whatsoever because there is simply NOTHING you can do to deal with it. It's poor design, not a game being "hard".

The "interesting" boss that took "like a year" to beat actually went unbeaten for 4-5 years. Everytime it was beaten it was considered a "glitch", and the glitch was removed. The playerbase begged for hints on how to kill the boss the entire time. The Dev team said NOTHING, then eventually gave in and released a video of them fighting the boss. IT SHOWED ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. The boss was still undefeatable for 2 years after the video. The boss could not be beaten until recently with a level cap increase. That's not "interesting", that is absolutely fucking retarded design. You don't make a boss that is unable to be killed, by anyone, for years. Seriously it was a CoP boss (2nd expansion) and wasn't beaten until the end of the 4th expansion (which took 3 years to complete).

The crafting system isn't "hard", it's stupid. You ALWAYS have a chance to fail to make something, there is NOTHING you can do to make this chance 0% and to get the final points in a craft either takes excessive amounts of gil (that you often can't make through the craft at all unless you're one of the ONLY crafters active on the realm) or takes extremely rare materials that are often monopolized by a certain guild, so that IF they aren't passing it to a friend of theirs sell it for OBSCENE amounts of gil because they know everyone else is desperate.

I am not going to knock WoW, I played it for 5 years, but only because there was no better alternative to my style of wanting to play. Wow is fun and simple and funny, but IMO it's not rewarding. Dungeons are beaten withing the first few days of release. As soon as you get the best epic in the game, oh it's replaced with a new one in the next patch. People who don't put in the time can almost be as well geared as you... stuff like that. (This was not the case in Vanilla WoW)


"I can't be a special snowflake." is a poor thing to hold against a game, but whatever. I was a special snowflake in FFXI for years, I still WOULD be if I logged back in after a couple years from the game (I have a Mandau on my THF), but it's not something keeping me in love with FFXI.

FF has an amazing storyline, (the storyline will develop through NPC quests, not only guildleves).


Agreed, finally a pro I can approve. The FF storylines/cutscenes are emotional and dramatic.

Also, having the best piece of gear for a certain skill or action or class will last you for years..not weeks, and once you get it you get a great sense of accomplishment.


And nothing to do. Oh how I loved those days of staring at my Mog in my Mog House because the only possible upgrades that exist in the game take a crazy amount of work AND luck. Oh and did you fail to mention that you can also take years to get a single item because of the "hard" drop rates? Oh, right, I mean "luck" based drop rates. Pray to your RNG gods!

Again this isn't a WoW vs FFXIV thing, they are two different types of games, and I'm just noting why one appeals more to a certain set of people then the other.


FF games are appealing to masochists who have no idea what actual gameplay is supposed to be. Storyline is all well and good, but I'm not playing and paying for 1-2 days of storyline every 2-3 months, which is what FFXI turned into for me. I only get bored of overexposure with WoW, because there's so much to do and so much to repeat that I enjoy.

Also, the WoW storyline is pretty good. IMO, it's "better" than FF in terms of exactly what's going on. WoW makes more sense. FF storylines are just told in a way to bring out more emotion, which is a high point for sure. But I talk about WoW lore more than I do FF storylines, and there's far more WoW lore out there as well. Cataclysm is aiming to make story one of the top things about the game, it's looking excellent.
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