Mass Effect - Best RPG series of all time?

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Re: Mass Effect - Best RPG series of all time?

Postby Flex » Fri May 11, 2012 12:02 pm

Passionario wrote:All it takes is just one unstable individual in a position of power on the organic side of things - in other words, another Han'Gerrel, Udina, TIM, Urdnot Wreav or Saren - and/or another floating point error that results in a genocidal heresy among the synthetics, and Rannoch will burn again.


My impression was that the Geth are true individuals now, with the help from the reaper code Legion sacrificed himself to upload. I mean Legion did use "I" before uploading the code. So they are less machines and much closer to having the unstable individual in power thing going on.

sahiel wrote:But that's the thing, he hasn't. It happened once to the Reapers original civilisation, and then they turned themselves into Reapers and came back every 50k years to ensure it could never happen again, so he really only has one data point, the exact same as Shepard does.


Except at the time of the Reapers return in the Prothean era they were engaged in a long war with machine AI.

Additionally with Javik's dialog it is stated that this current cycle is vastly behind where the Protheans were when they were harvested. They created a mass relay themselves, something the current races are seemingly nowhere close to being technology wise.

http://galacticpillow.com/2012/04/02/ed ... -3-ending/
http://galacticpillow.com/2012/03/13/ed ... -analysis/

#7 was what I thought was the purpose of the Crucible.
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Re: Mass Effect - Best RPG series of all time?

Postby Klaudandus » Fri May 11, 2012 12:30 pm

Flex wrote:Except at the time of the Reapers return in the Prothean era they were engaged in a long war with machine AI.


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Re: Mass Effect - Best RPG series of all time?

Postby Flex » Fri May 11, 2012 12:39 pm

Klaudandus wrote:
Flex wrote:Except at the time of the Reapers return in the Prothean era they were engaged in a long war with machine AI.


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That was addressed in one or maybe even both of the linked articles.
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Re: Mass Effect - Best RPG series of all time?

Postby sahiel » Fri May 11, 2012 1:46 pm



Lots of well, written, smart and accurate science which is a pleasure to read. Just a shame it manages to pretty much entirely miss why most people are upset, to my mind at least.

You leave your companions fighting, possibly about to die and for the vast majority, you NEVER see them again. Are they alive? Are they dead? These are companions who in some cases can have been with you from the very start, for 100 hours or more of gameplay, who you have romanced, fought to save, bled alongside, they are in a very real sense people we care deeply about, let alone the npc's you have grown attached to.

The game does a decent job of tying up most of the plot threads, Geth vs Taurian, Alliance vs Cerberus, etc and yet then goes on to totally leave you clueless to all but 3 of your companions fates and those 3 you have no idea what happened to get them there or if they will live, in fact in many cases some of those survivors will be dextro-protein based races (Taurians & Quarians) mixed in with levo-amino acid based races (Humans, Salarians, Asari), whose foods according to Mass Effects own science is stated (multiple times) to at best provide no nutrition to the other, at worst cause allergic reactions possibly leading to death. So one group of those is going to die on random dextro/amino world, shame (as opposed to the 'Real World' where we don't entirely know what effects dextro-protein food sources would have as a full time food source though many bacteria appear to be able to break them down without harm, so that at worst it would probably provide no value).

I apparently can't say it enough but bleak, dark ending was not a problem, (ignoring the space magic normandy scene) no information at all about the survival/death of your companions who you spent 100+ hours alongside was a problem.
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Re: Mass Effect - Best RPG series of all time?

Postby Klaudandus » Fri May 11, 2012 2:55 pm

The articles makes me wanna play my tiny violin when the author starts talking about the integrity of the game. It might be a piece of art, but it's also a product -- this is specially poignant when right after the credits end they tell you to buy more DLC.

I'm complaining about my product being bad. Like any other product, I can go to the manufacturer and tell them what I don't like about their product and the likelihood of me not buying their products.

The manufacturer has all the right to either revise and improve forward or ignore and stick to their guns, but at no point they're entitled to my money.

I didn't buy a PS3 because no backward compatibility. I had a huge PS1 and PS2 library, I still play those games, but I chose to tell Sony I'd not buy their products anymore because they would be a step backwards for me. Same with truck tires, they lasted barely 3/5 of their expected life, I chose to tell the manufacturer what I did not like about it and that I'd be choosing another product in the future.

The difference is that this product got overhyped and fell flat on its face in delivering all that was promised... I'm sorry, but that IS a bad product, and as a consumer, I got the right to make the manufacturer know what I didn't like about it and that I'll be moving to other companies instead.

I just think the bioware people really have no right to claim "artistic integrity" when, like i said before, the big message I get after the credits is "buy more dlc".

Again, for the record, it's not the ending per se, but rather the narrative structure (or lack thereof) on which the ending was built

If somehow the ending had Sheperd becoming a transgendered stripper in singapore, I'd have taken it, as long as the narrative structure upon it was built was cohesive.

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Re: Mass Effect - Best RPG series of all time?

Postby Arnock » Fri May 11, 2012 4:44 pm

Even if there is a high statistical probability that civilization would be wiped out by synthetics, how exactly does that justify the 50k year extinction though? If the reapers have the power to wipe out galactic civilizations, why couldn't they just let things play out and wait to commit the genocide until the synthetics do start taking over?

And if they have the ability to hybridize everyone, and this is presented as the "best" option by the little starchild, why haven't they done that to begin with? Make the cyborgs at year zero of a cycle, and then let them develop as cyborgs.


The way the ending was presented, it almost seemed to me like if the U.S. looked at the middle east or sub-saharan Africa and say, "Hey guys, we're sick of all of this fighting and wars, eventually one of you is going to get a nuke, and then start killing everyone. Therefore, we're just going to nuke everyone in your region to prevent the eventual death of all humanity."


And then, after this revelation, as a player we must accept it as absolute truth. All organic life will die at the hands of synthetics, period. And then, as a solution, we get three different flavors of ending galactic civilization ourselves, potentially dooming millions.

It's even more grating when one of the game's central themes centers around the idea of self-determination. "The quarians tried to wipe out the geth? Shouldn't they have the chance to make it themselves?" "The krogan have been genetically modified by an outside source beyond their control, so that they can barely even reproduce? Should other races have the right to play God like that?" "Should Humans have to dance on the strings and act at the mercy of a council of alien races?" Or, depending on how one's choices played out, "Should one species have that much control over an entire galaxy?"

The entire series was based on the idea of your choices having a meaningful affect on the in-game universe, and then it got flipped around when, at the end, all we got was, "Red, green, or blue?"
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Re: Mass Effect - Best RPG series of all time?

Postby aureon » Fri May 11, 2012 5:18 pm


Very nice read.
Although:
If that doesn’t make the ending awesome, I don’t know what would.

Referring to the Kardashev thing.
None of it is actually carried in the ending. We fully know all the races in play and their interactions (save for the Catalyst), we know that reapers come every 50k years ciclically, and stuff. Nothing of it is in the ending.
Also, the whole "Type I civilizations build a type III weapon" is erratic at best.
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Re: Mass Effect - Best RPG series of all time?

Postby Passionario » Sat May 12, 2012 1:10 am

Arnock wrote:Even if there is a high statistical probability that civilization would be wiped out by synthetics, how exactly does that justify the 50k year extinction though? If the reapers have the power to wipe out galactic civilizations, why couldn't they just let things play out and wait to commit the genocide until the synthetics do start taking over?

And if they have the ability to hybridize everyone, and this is presented as the "best" option by the little starchild, why haven't they done that to begin with? Make the cyborgs at year zero of a cycle, and then let them develop as cyborgs.


My personal interpretation of this:

The universe is like a slightly buggy server running on outdated software. Leave it up for too long, and stack overflow errors will accrue at an exponential rate, eventually resulting in a crash (synthetic apocalypse scenario).

The 50K year extinction cycle is the cosmic equivalent of the weekly maintenance that resets the "Time to Doomsday" counter to 0 and archives all spacefaring organic civilizations to external hard drives (Reaper ships).

Synthesis option was not available from day zero because it required a completed Crucible, and no organic race (or coalition thereof) managed to complete the Crucible in prior cycles. In terms of this analogy, the Crucible is a patch that, once installed (via Synthesis option), upgrades the server's software and makes it more stable, removing the need for weekly downtime.

The Star Child is a pop-up window that says: "Weekly maintenance failed. New updates detected. Abort, Debug, Download Patch?"
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Re: Mass Effect - Best RPG series of all time?

Postby Fivelives » Sat May 12, 2012 1:44 am

Passionario wrote:The Star Child is a pop-up window that says: "Weekly maintenance failed. New updates detected. Abort, Debug, Download Patch?"


LOL
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Re: Mass Effect - Best RPG series of all time?

Postby Klaudandus » Sat May 12, 2012 5:08 am

Fivelives wrote:
Passionario wrote:The Star Child is a pop-up window that says: "Weekly maintenance failed. New updates detected. Abort, Debug, Download Patch?"


LOL


LOL'd as well.
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Re: Mass Effect - Best RPG series of all time?

Postby Gracerath » Sun May 13, 2012 3:14 pm

When reading those two large articles, it is a lot easier to put everything together in a way that at least makes some sort of sense. I wonder if the writers had to sit down and have a big dissertation-like discussion in order for it to all come together. For us average players with a a baisc but not in depth knowledge of all the lore, that is where the endings start to feel shitty. I haven't beat the game yet but of course I spoiled it long ago. When I read them all I had serious "wtf?!" moments just like everyone. Those articles help and make them easier to swallow. It is just a shame that it takes massive out of game explanations in order for me to accept them. I hope the DLC's will expand the stuff the way those articles do. It will be nice to see it in game rather than a giant wall o text (though they WERE a good read)
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Re: Mass Effect - Best RPG series of all time?

Postby Fivelives » Mon May 14, 2012 7:25 am

It's almost like they just gave up and said "There's no way in hell we're going to be able to meet people's expectations, so let's just throw something in there that only Sheldon Cooper would like".

That's what I got out of the articles, anyway. A bunch of crap that was written solely to try and convince me that the ending(s) was GOOD. It is most definitely NOT good, and there's nothing short of a bitchslap from <deity> that'll convince me that it had any merit in it whatsoever.

Also of note: interesting how neither of those articles bothered to try and defend the "you buy DLC nao kkthxbai!!~" message.
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Re: Mass Effect - Best RPG series of all time?

Postby Fivelives » Mon May 14, 2012 7:30 am

Also:

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(new post since this one didn't exactly fit with my last one)
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Re: Mass Effect - Best RPG series of all time?

Postby Klaudandus » Tue May 29, 2012 9:36 pm

Admiral Hackett and Garrus confirmed doing voice overs for the extended ending DLC
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Re: Mass Effect - Best RPG series of all time?

Postby Sagara » Wed May 30, 2012 11:44 am

Latest "Joueur du Grenier" (Cellar's Gamer) had a small "homage" to ME3:

EDIT: OUCH, server got hit bad. Youtube redirect

Quick translation:

Off: Hey, didn't you change sofa?
Cellar Gamer: Yep.
Off: What happened to the old one?

---------

Off: Shitty ending.
CG: Yeah, definitly."
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