Star Wars; Old Republic

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Re: Star Wars; Old Republic

Postby anafielle » Fri May 04, 2012 4:52 pm

I suppose even you get to be correct once in a while :) I can't disagree with that. I switched out of tanking and have more fun.

Anyways, SWTOR, since I have moar ranting to do.

It's nice to hear that the raid content has improved over the first instance or two. But looking back, I was pretty happy with SWTOR for a while. I really was. I was willing to put up with the first 2 raid instances because it was their very first shot, and because I could see obvious improvement in KP over EV. So much of it was just garbage, yet there were glimmers of a fun endgame there, some interesting decisions, some mechanics that would approach difficulty if tested and tuned correctly. I was happy to see where more experience would lead their encounter designers. I liked my guild and I liked my class (Jedi Sage. Ranged is fun!!) I was even very satisfied with how closely many of my potential DPS specs were tuned together- something WOW has always struggled to keep straight when balancing classes of different DPS specs.

But then came the guild summit and the combat log debacle. I guess looking back, I kinda ragequit over the whole combat log thing.

I was just so mad, so mad. Their approach to combat log was not ok. Their approach to combat log spat on everything that I enjoyed about raiding. I felt as though I was personally insulted as a raider that they would cripple something that is an integral part of my raiding experience to placate whining forum trolls. And if that was their design team's vision for raiding, I wanted no part of it. I was very unhappy because I really wanted to believe in the game, I wanted to have this plan for me to raid in SWTOR when I was bored and 8/8 in wow content... but then the devs were like "nah, we aren't really that serious about giving you compelling content, we are going to half ass it and put our effort elsewhere."

So ... um, I did rage. And quit. I did feel very much like as a raider that the devs had given us the finger. But maybe now, I am just embarassed at how rage filled I was and wondering if I should go try it again. Kinda waiting to see if someone says, "Ana, give SWTOR another shot, you weren't fair to it last time." But maybe I was fair. IDK.
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Re: Star Wars; Old Republic

Postby Arnock » Sat May 05, 2012 2:42 pm

What happened with the combat log?
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Re: Star Wars; Old Republic

Postby aureon » Sun May 06, 2012 5:16 am

I think they refused to implement it.
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Re: Star Wars; Old Republic

Postby Passionario » Sun May 06, 2012 8:37 am

Arnock wrote:What happened with the combat log?


Combat log was implemented in 1.2; however, it can only be saved to a file.

This approach allows for post-battle WoL-style performance analysis, while preventing Recount-style e-peen battles during the game.
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Re: Star Wars; Old Republic

Postby aureon » Sun May 06, 2012 9:27 am

Sincerely speaking, that's quite okay.
Not that recount-battles were THAT bad, anyway. There's times when all you really should do is strive for that number.
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Re: Star Wars; Old Republic

Postby anafielle » Sun May 06, 2012 10:39 pm

That's not what I thought happened. I was told it was self-only?

Which isn't a combat log at all, that's just a "check your numbers and pat yourself on the back" log. It's great for optimizing your damage........... which is like, BASELINE performance expectation in a hardcore raid. A self only combat log will help you beat H Ultraxion -- and really nothing else. A raid is a (well, in SWTOR) 8 or 16 person affair. Seeing 1/8 or 1/16 of the fight in a log isn't helpful one bit when you are trying to figure out how to improve on what the whole group is doing. I cannot count the number of times that I have learned from someone else's mistake (or hope someone else learned from my mistake), or poured over the whole raid's damage breakdown on different targets, or compared my performance to other people to improve, not to epeen away. All of that is impossible when you hide parts of the combat log for everyone because the devs want to make it impossible for 5 man pugs to hurt feelings. Or, more accurately, 5 man PUG jerks will always be jerks, they'll just be jerks in other ways than linking some numbers out of recount.

There were a lot of other ways to soothe the butthurt forum kids than to cripple the whole thing. For example, make it only include guildmates, or disable it in PUG groups, or make the whole-raid combat log only active in raids, or make it toggleable by the raid leader or something. But taking a (full featured) combat log away from raids was the best way to drive off raiders. I didn't like the attitude it showed.

So it is obvious that I wanted more out of SWTOR raiding than it was going to give me -- but that's just plain too bad, because I thought SWTOR raiding looked cool. They can't design a compelling encounter without giving raiders access to the information that we are used to getting in WOW though.

I could be wrong though. Was the combat actually implemented for everyone or is it still self-only? Been a while since I had a look. I am told that the self-only stuff could be pieced together anyways to make an actual log of the evening.
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Re: Star Wars; Old Republic

Postby Shyrtandros » Mon May 07, 2012 11:21 am

The current implementation of the Combat Log is just a personal log. It records everything you do or everything done to you. Damage dealt and received, healing dealt and received. The way it works is that you enable logging to file and it records everything and drops it in a document in your “My Documents” folder. Once you’ve obtained the log you can use a 3rd party program to breakdown everything for you.

Contrary to what a lot of people believe you actually can see the entire raids performance instead of just your own, and you can see it in real time too. A program like MOX Desktop Parser works great. You just point the program to your log folder and it does the rest just like “Recount” would for WoW. It has an option for a “Pop-out Window” to look similar to Recount.

In order to get it to show everybody you have to do a “Raid Sync” basically the raid leader will generate a “Raid Key” for example MZL_L_1138, everyone drops it into their Parser, Syncs and then when combat begins everyone will show up.

While it requires the extra step of dropping in a raid key it’s no harder than installing a WoW Addon.
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Re: Star Wars; Old Republic

Postby sahiel » Mon May 07, 2012 11:22 am

It's currently only everything that happened to, was done by you. However, Mr Robot has a tool whereby you upload your log quicksmart after a fight, tag it with guild name, time etc. So does everyone else in raid and boom, it combines them to a full Op report that covers everything that happened in the fight.
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Re: Star Wars; Old Republic

Postby Gab » Mon May 07, 2012 2:48 pm

Ouch... In before "Free to play".

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/ea-sales-beat-targets-star-wars-takes-hit-2012-05-07?siteid=yhoof2

1/4 of your player base gone in a quarter? No bueno, on second thought being a fly on the wall in that room doesn't sound too appealing.
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Re: Star Wars; Old Republic

Postby sahiel » Tue May 08, 2012 10:38 am

Gab wrote:Ouch... In before "Free to play".

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/ea-sales-beat-targets-star-wars-takes-hit-2012-05-07?siteid=yhoof2

1/4 of your player base gone in a quarter? No bueno, on second thought being a fly on the wall in that room doesn't sound too appealing.

Shame to see such a drop but I think it's probably a bit ridiculous to expect a game with 1.3 million paying subs to go free to play. If it drops down to well below a mil, that's certainly likely but given they were 'aiming' for 1.5 mil as their target audience I doubt it'll be even on the table, certainly not until they've had a year or more to try and rebuild their subscriber base, given two new content patches are slated this quarter and an expac possibly near the end of the year.
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Re: Star Wars; Old Republic

Postby aureon » Tue May 08, 2012 1:48 pm

What do you espect from a mainly story-centered game design?
A normal MMO is chores during levelling, and giggles on max.
SWTOR was the exact contrary. Makes sense tbh. And 1.3 mil subs aren't anything to scoff at - what's it, 2nd sub MMO after WoW?
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Re: Star Wars; Old Republic

Postby Gab » Tue May 08, 2012 2:21 pm

sahiel wrote:Shame to see such a drop but I think it's probably a bit ridiculous to expect a game with 1.3 million paying subs to go free to play. If it drops down to well below a mil, that's certainly likely but given they were 'aiming' for 1.5 mil as their target audience I doubt it'll be even on the table, certainly not until they've had a year or more to try and rebuild their subscriber base, given two new content patches are slated this quarter and an expac possibly near the end of the year.


Not sure where the 'aiming' for 1.5 mil is coming from. Analysts were expecting SW to reach 1.5 million subscribers but now expect subs to level off at 1 million. That's pretty significant.

It'll be awhile before SW goes FTP obviously (if ever) but it's on the right track if history is any indicator. Losing that many subs in such a short period of time is not good.

Also keep in mind that 1.3 mil is generous because that includes all accounts that were on the "one month free".

aureon wrote:What do you espect from a mainly story-centered game design?
A normal MMO is chores during levelling, and giggles on max.
SWTOR was the exact contrary. Makes sense tbh. And 1.3 mil subs aren't anything to scoff at - what's it, 2nd sub MMO after WoW?


2nd like Rift was, Aion was, Conan was, Warhammer was etc...

Don't get me wrong they could turn it around, but at the moment the outlook is pretty bleak.
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Re: Star Wars; Old Republic

Postby anafielle » Tue May 08, 2012 7:34 pm

Shyrtandros wrote:Contrary to what a lot of people believe you actually can see the entire raids performance instead of just your own, and you can see it in real time too. A program like MOX Desktop Parser works great. You just point the program to your log folder and it does the rest just like “Recount” would for WoW. It has an option for a “Pop-out Window” to look similar to Recount.

In order to get it to show everybody you have to do a “Raid Sync” basically the raid leader will generate a “Raid Key” for example MZL_L_1138, everyone drops it into their Parser, Syncs and then when combat begins everyone will show up.

While it requires the extra step of dropping in a raid key it’s no harder than installing a WoW Addon.


Thanks a lot for posting that! I am actually a whole lot happier with that implementation.

To be honest I think that's pretty cool. Contrary to what it might sound like, I'm ok with letting people only see their own performance and protect their own information ..... while letting a like-minded group of people share information when they want to share. If it can really be seen in game as easily as you say, while just everyone basically "agreeing" to it, that's a pretty neat implementation and I agree that it's definitely no more complex than installing an addon. Wow might be a much more happy place in general if everyone had to agree to share their combat information. :) As long as it's as easy as it sounds and not crazy buggy... very interesting implementation. I didn't realize it was sync-able in game as you describe.

I'm tempted to say "well done" and go back for a look.

Unfortunately it sounds like too-little, too late. My own unhappiness with the game had a raider's flavor to it, but I wasn't the only person who thought they didn't put near enough focus on endgame until it was too late. The subscriber drop doesn't surprise me at all. They're completely right about the cause. People got to 50 - maybe they even got two 50s - and the endgame didn't hold them there. There are a lot of ways to implement a compelling endgame, and hard raiding isn't the only way to do it, but SWTOR failed at all of them upon launch and for months.

Also I ended up on Republic side. :( I like Republic. SWTOR doesn't like Republic though.
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Re: Star Wars; Old Republic

Postby Pala » Tue May 08, 2012 8:11 pm

We use Mox in our Operations and the little pop out windows work well. You can view the logs later on too. They keep breaking stuff with patches and fix the silly stuff. I like my Sniper and the new Operations are good but I'd rather play TERA Online when not operating.
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Re: Star Wars; Old Republic

Postby Winkle » Thu May 10, 2012 7:41 am

Have they fixed Illum yet? I couldn't believe the mess they made of world pvp.

What about rated BG's?
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Re: Star Wars; Old Republic

Postby Shyrtandros » Fri May 11, 2012 7:22 am

Winkle wrote:Have they fixed Illum yet? I couldn't believe the mess they made of world pvp.

What about rated BG's?



They retired Ilum, no more quests or reasons to go there unless you organize a group vs group battle for fun.

Rated WZ's are still not in the game and are still "coming soon".
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Re: Star Wars; Old Republic

Postby Shyrtandros » Fri May 11, 2012 7:24 am

Shyrtandros wrote:
Winkle wrote:Have they fixed Illum yet? I couldn't believe the mess they made of world pvp.

What about rated BG's?



They retired the Ilum pvp area, no more quests or reasons to go there unless you organize a group vs group battle for fun.

Rated WZ's are still not in the game and are still "coming soon".
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Re: Star Wars; Old Republic

Postby Barathorn » Tue May 15, 2012 7:18 am

I cancelled my account 3 weeks ago. I had no reason to log in other than to stare at what could have been. Cracking game but really its a single player game because Bioware set the caps far too low for initial servers thus killing any sense of community because it never had a chance to grow. Still glad I played it but I feel its a wasted opportunity.

I am currently playing a free Ultima Online server pre Renaisance which is brutal, gritty and real while I wait for the Secret World and GW2.
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Re: Star Wars; Old Republic

Postby Shyrtandros » Tue May 15, 2012 7:57 am

Barathorn wrote:I cancelled my account 3 weeks ago. I had no reason to log in other than to stare at what could have been. Cracking game but really its a single player game because Bioware set the caps far too low for initial servers thus killing any sense of community because it never had a chance to grow. Still glad I played it but I feel its a wasted opportunity.

I am currently playing a free Ultima Online server pre Renaisance which is brutal, gritty and real while I wait for the Secret World and GW2.


I’m about || close to cancelling out my subscription too. The only thing holding me back is my friends and guildies since I’m the GM. (Yeah that’s REALLY bad.) Although I’m thinking of just MAKING sure they have my Skype, battle.net ID, and of course access to my mumble and just communicating with them all that way. I don’t see why I would bother continuing with SWTOR since now I have D3, LOL & GW2 Beta and if I really wanted MOP beta.
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Re: Star Wars; Old Republic

Postby Barathorn » Tue May 15, 2012 8:04 am

If you are going to play GW2 I might hit you up for a guild invite when it starts.

I think quite a few people are waiting for it now and despite my initial reservations it does look to be what I want from a game. The Secret World interests me because it has the same skill progression style as UO but I think it might be a bit samey after a while.

We found with SWTOR anything with voice dialogue just doesn't work one bit when you are on ventrillo with your friends as all that happens is you end up logging out from vent to hear the story narrative which really works at cross purposes to enjoying the game with your friends.
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Re: Star Wars; Old Republic

Postby Shyrtandros » Tue May 15, 2012 8:49 am

Barathorn wrote:If you are going to play GW2 I might hit you up for a guild invite when it starts.


I’m not big into the Guild Wars series like my father and his geezers are but they’ve definitely got a guild put together for everyone and you’d be more than welcome to join.  (Woot for having a gamer dad! I hooked him on Asteroids (15?) years ago.

Barathorn wrote:
I think quite a few people are waiting for it now and despite my initial reservations it does look to be what I want from a game. The Secret World interests me because it has the same skill progression style as UO but I think it might be a bit samey after a while.


I can’t say much because I haven’t tried it – however I’ve had a lot of “meh” feedback on The Secret World from everyone.

Barathorn wrote:We found with SWTOR anything with voice dialogue just doesn't work one bit when you are on ventrillo with your friends as all that happens is you end up logging out from vent to hear the story narrative which really works at cross purposes to enjoying the game with your friends.

This is going to be a problem we’re all going to have to learn to work with. Diablo 3, Guild Wars 2 and many other new games are coming with Voice Dialogue.

As a side note.. I love how everyone thought SWTOR was “the bees knees” with their voice dialogue missions when Diablo 2 had Voice Dialogue 14 years for all of their quests. (Albeit voice acting for D2 probably took like an hour.. lol)
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Re: Star Wars; Old Republic

Postby sahiel » Tue May 15, 2012 12:00 pm

Shyrtandros wrote:
Barathorn wrote:We found with SWTOR anything with voice dialogue just doesn't work one bit when you are on ventrillo with your friends as all that happens is you end up logging out from vent to hear the story narrative which really works at cross purposes to enjoying the game with your friends.

This is going to be a problem we’re all going to have to learn to work with. Diablo 3, Guild Wars 2 and many other new games are coming with Voice Dialogue.

Might I suggest Mumble instead of vent, we started using it and it's far preferable. The sound seems clearer, people who used to lag on vent are lag free, it can auto quieten music you have playing a bit when someone speaks if you choose, it has a simple button to mute both mic and headset from mumble (individually or together) so there's no need to log out for quest convos etc.

All in all I'm really pleased we switched to it, oh and it was half the price of vent as well.
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Re: Star Wars; Old Republic

Postby Shyrtandros » Tue May 15, 2012 12:28 pm

sahiel wrote:
Shyrtandros wrote:
Barathorn wrote:We found with SWTOR anything with voice dialogue just doesn't work one bit when you are on ventrillo with your friends as all that happens is you end up logging out from vent to hear the story narrative which really works at cross purposes to enjoying the game with your friends.

This is going to be a problem we’re all going to have to learn to work with. Diablo 3, Guild Wars 2 and many other new games are coming with Voice Dialogue.

Might I suggest Mumble instead of vent, we started using it and it's far preferable. The sound seems clearer, people who used to lag on vent are lag free, it can auto quieten music you have playing a bit when someone speaks if you choose, it has a simple button to mute both mic and headset from mumble (individually or together) so there's no need to log out for quest convos etc.

All in all I'm really pleased we switched to it, oh and it was half the price of vent as well.


Doh! I totally meant to mention this in my last post. We immediately made the switch to Mumble and it’s great because we can drop in the chat box or just make a quick “Listening to RP” statement and pop the speaker off / mic off buttons.
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Re: Star Wars; Old Republic

Postby Baelor » Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:11 am

I had a blast getting my Jedi Knight to 50 and gearing him up in operations.
It was even fun running the same hard-mode flashpoint daily for a piece of gear I wanted, trying to beat my fastest speed record with PUG members as I flew through the flashpoint at warp speed, dragging the bewildered PUG's with me.

The problem I'm encountering now is that while the class stories are fun, I've seen the world arc before. I have little desire to re-live the Republic world arc, and I don't want to play Empire. Thus, I'm finding little motivation to play alts, and I've maxed out the PvE progression for my Knight.

The thought of subscription cancellation is dancing around in my head, and having trouble finding reasons to quiet it. And this is coming from a guy who was so jazzed about this game that he volunteered time for a fan site in a vain attempt to get insider info.

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Re: Star Wars; Old Republic

Postby sahiel » Tue Jun 12, 2012 3:47 pm

Baelor wrote:The problem I'm encountering now is that while the class stories are fun, I've seen the world arc before. I have little desire to re-live the Republic world arc, and I don't want to play Empire. Thus,


Any particularly strong reason? The Imperial Agent story-line is one of the strongest and most interesting in the whole game imo and that of most of my friends and guild mates who have tried it, definitely worth a go I'd suggest.
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