Graphics Card Question

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Re: Graphics Card Question

Postby gibborim » Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:32 pm

knaughty wrote:Yeah, those graphics cards, we should talk about those.


Yea, it sounds like his work is providing machines to work on. He also seems to have some level of need for gaming hardware. He just finished school, so he is probably somewhere in the spectrum of poor.

Building a PC seems like a good choice. You can always make it into a Hackintosh if you decide OSX is the best thing ever at work.
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Re: Graphics Card Question

Postby laterna » Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:39 pm

I agree with Gibborim's advice too. If he is getting supplied a mac from work, there is no reason to get another mac for your house needs. Especially for a newly postgraduate student, who most likely cannot afford the premium.
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Re: Graphics Card Question

Postby knaughty » Wed Apr 06, 2011 3:29 am

gibborim wrote: You can always make it into a Hackintosh if you decide OSX is the best thing ever at work.


Just make sure you buy the right hardware. OSX only supports stuff that Apple have shipped.
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Re: Graphics Card Question

Postby laterna » Thu Apr 07, 2011 11:56 pm

After crusading against the forces of the Macs, I come home today to find out that my GPU is somewhat fucked.

Some screen tearing in games now, an occasional stutter too. Run unigine and it just went ballistics on it.

Oh well, I was going to send the motherboard in for a replacement this month anyway, might as well send the GPU too.
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Re: Graphics Card Question

Postby knaughty » Fri Apr 08, 2011 3:09 am

See, you have angered the Mac gods and they have smote thee with great smoting.

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Re: Graphics Card Question

Postby laterna » Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:20 am

It just upsets me at times that I get unlucky at times with hardware... 570 are known to have bad VRM's. I'll just try and see if I can bargain OC.UK to send me a 580 (with me covering the extra $$)
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Re: Graphics Card Question

Postby tlitp » Fri Apr 08, 2011 3:26 pm

laterna wrote:570 are known to have bad VRM's.

The reference design's VRM of both 570/580 is undersized (4+2 phases for 570, 6+2 phases for 580), go for custom implementations : Asus DirectCU II (both 570/580) or the upcoming Matrix Platinum (only 580), MSI Lightning (only 580), the upcoming Gigabyte Super Overclock (both 570/580).
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Re: Graphics Card Question

Postby laterna » Sat Apr 09, 2011 1:00 am

Never heard about the undersizing in phase voltage, but I know for a fact that 570/590 both have a history of bad VRM's...

Anyway, I've started my process of going down the long and lonely road of RMA's... hopefully I can convince eVGA to step me up to a 580
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Re: Graphics Card Question

Postby isiz » Sat Apr 09, 2011 5:13 pm

So, wow, I didn't expect to start a big Mac VS PC thread...

Anyway, it has been mentioned a few times in this thread that making a Mac partition on a PC would be illegal. Why is that? Is it just impossible to buy an OSX license w/o also buying a Mac attached to the license?
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Re: Graphics Card Question

Postby Talaii » Sat Apr 09, 2011 7:54 pm

isiz wrote:So, wow, I didn't expect to start a big Mac VS PC thread...

Anyway, it has been mentioned a few times in this thread that making a Mac partition on a PC would be illegal. Why is that? Is it just impossible to buy an OSX license w/o also buying a Mac attached to the license?


OSX won't let you install unless it detects you are using an apple motherboard, basically. There are methods of getting around it, but it's a process more akin to rooting a phone than just installing an operating system.

I'm not sure how legal it is, but there are many sites dedicated to getting it working; but it is a lot more work than just "put in disk, install OS".
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Re: Graphics Card Question

Postby knaughty » Sat Apr 09, 2011 9:56 pm

isiz wrote:So, wow, I didn't expect to start a big Mac VS PC thread...

Anyway, it has been mentioned a few times in this thread that making a Mac partition on a PC would be illegal. Why is that? Is it just impossible to buy an OSX license w/o also buying a Mac attached to the license?

All new Macs come with the latest version of the OS. You can also buy OSX on it own - it's quite cheap in comparison to Windows - US$129 ($199 for a 5-pack which is exactly the same as the 1-pack.... Still sells well, apparently). You just can't legally install it on anything except a Mac: Apple's copyright and licence conditions prohibit installing OSX on anything except an Apple-manufactured computer.

And yes, it has been tested in court and was found to be valid.

In addition to the legal restriction, the only copy protection on the OSX DVDs is code to detect whether you're trying to install on an Apple manufactured PC. There's no serial codes, re-installation restrictions or tracking - Apple seem to have the opinion that all piracy-prevention crap does is annoy your paying customers while not preventing piracy. Even the "restore" CDs that come with new Macs can mostly be used as general purpose OS X installation CDs.
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Re: Graphics Card Question

Postby Fridmarr » Sun Apr 10, 2011 9:32 am

knaughty wrote:
Panzerdin wrote:Oh, and Thunderbolt is useless because it isn't any faster than USB 3 for practical purposes: only the very highest of high-end SSDs can actually read/write fast enough for anyone to notice a difference.


Typical WinTel bigot argument.

lol, hypocrite much?

I love my MacBook Pro, I do have to run fusion for a few things though which is a pain. I doubt I'd buy a PC based laptop anytime soon though. In the laptop department, the MacBooks are decent buys because you can't as easily build your own laptop. Apple uses pretty good quality components, better than I'd trust from most PC manufacturers. At the desktop level though, they are pretty bad buys, you can likely build a PC with better specs for nearly half the cost.

My generation Macbook Pro does have a cooling problem and WoW is enough to get it running really hot. It's fairly rare that it would actually cause a problem though, and I believe that's been resolved with the current generation.


knaughty wrote:
Android isn't even open anymore, once Google decided it should be closed.

Actually Android is still open, and I don't think Apple wants to get into a good corporate citizen argument with Google. Hell the last couple of years, Apple has made even Microsoft look like good guys.
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Re: Graphics Card Question

Postby gibborim » Sun Apr 10, 2011 10:11 am

Fridmarr wrote:
knaughty wrote:
Android isn't even open anymore, once Google decided it should be closed.

Actually Android is still open, and I don't think Apple wants to get into a good corporate citizen argument with Google. Hell the last couple of years, Apple has made even Microsoft look like good guys.


Android 3.0's code is not being released for the foreseeable future.

Gates has always been the good guy. Most people just focus on the brutal, monopolistic business practices he used in order to make more money to give to charity/solve world problems.
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Re: Graphics Card Question

Postby Fridmarr » Sun Apr 10, 2011 10:25 am

gibborim wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:
knaughty wrote:
Android isn't even open anymore, once Google decided it should be closed.

Actually Android is still open, and I don't think Apple wants to get into a good corporate citizen argument with Google. Hell the last couple of years, Apple has made even Microsoft look like good guys.


Android 3.0's code is not being released for the foreseeable future.

Gates has always been the good guy. Most people just focus on the brutal, monopolistic business practices he used in order to make more money to give to charity/solve world problems.

It'll be released when it's ready.

http://android-developers.blogspot.com/ ... oment.html
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Re: Graphics Card Question

Postby Koatanga » Sun Apr 10, 2011 1:58 pm

It'll be released when it's ready.

That's what they said about Duke Nukem.
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Re: Graphics Card Question

Postby knaughty » Sun Apr 10, 2011 5:26 pm

Fridmarr wrote:It'll be released when it's ready.

http://android-developers.blogspot.com/ ... oment.html

That is NOT the same thing as "Open Source".

"We'll release it when we feel like it" amounts to "We'll release it when it no longer provides us competitive advantage" and is pretty much the same open-source policy that Apple follow.
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Re: Graphics Card Question

Postby Gorlando » Sun Apr 10, 2011 7:10 pm

knaughty wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:It'll be released when it's ready.

http://android-developers.blogspot.com/ ... oment.html

That is NOT the same thing as "Open Source".

"We'll release it when we feel like it" amounts to "We'll release it when it no longer provides us competitive advantage" and is pretty much the same open-source policy that Apple follow.


Andy Rubin wrote:As soon as this work is completed, we’ll publish the code.

versus
knaughty wrote:"We'll release it when we feel like it"

There's a bit of a difference between the two statements.

The quote was taken from the link in Fridmarr's post.
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Re: Graphics Card Question

Postby Fridmarr » Sun Apr 10, 2011 9:16 pm

knaughty wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:It'll be released when it's ready.

http://android-developers.blogspot.com/ ... oment.html

That is NOT the same thing as "Open Source".

"We'll release it when we feel like it" amounts to "We'll release it when it no longer provides us competitive advantage" and is pretty much the same open-source policy that Apple follow.

Well that's not what is being said, nor is that how Android (a platform for which I do quite a bit of development (along with a little IPhone work)) has worked or will work. Android came out of the Open Handset Alliance and has matured as an Open Source Product. Honeycomb, was not written for phones, it was written on top of Android but for tablets. Thus this particular comment is of interest
Andy Rubin wrote:As I write this the Android team is still hard at work to bring all the new Honeycomb features to phones.

Emphasis mine. The point is, Honeycomb or Android 3, does not yet exist on phones. That is why it hasn't been released yet, it's simply not done. There is no phone that runs it yet.

So quite obviously, Android is still open source, and the competitive advantage argument is kind of silly when you work with and understand the APIs. Honeycomb is unlikely to house any major trade secrets at the OS level that are worth hiding. It would be quite difficult for it to remain open from a hardware and software stack level, if there was some dramatic shift. Plus, its feature set has been widely publicized for some time.

Apple is simply not open in any real sense. That's not a bad thing, it's just how they operate and the results drive and push other technologies at times, which is ultimately good. Being Open can be an encumbrance and Apple simply doesn't have to deal with that aspect.

TLDR: Android IS open source, feel free to dive in:
http://android.git.kernel.org/
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Re: Graphics Card Question

Postby Flex » Sun Apr 10, 2011 10:06 pm

knaughty wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:It'll be released when it's ready.

http://android-developers.blogspot.com/ ... oment.html

That is NOT the same thing as "Open Source".

"We'll release it when we feel like it" amounts to "We'll release it when it no longer provides us competitive advantage" and is pretty much the same open-source policy that Apple follow.


Well the competitive advantage parts are the apps that Google provides (Maps and the Market are two) which are not and have never been open source and if reports are to believed getting access to those apps will be getting harder to accomplish.
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Re: Graphics Card Question

Postby knaughty » Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:25 am

Android 3.0, AKA Honeycomb has, as I understand it, been released on various hardware platforms already.

You cannot obtain the source for any of these pieces of hardware.

You also cannot have a copy of Honeycomb from Google in order to build your own tablet (without signing whatever onerous conditions Google decide to apply).

Android was deliberately coded on the Apache licence because it allows you to take your stuff closed-source at whim:
Android FAQ wrote:Why did you pick the Apache v2 open source license?

Apache is a commercial-friendly open source license. The Apache license allows manufacturers and mobile operators to innovate using the platform without the requirement to contribute those innovations back to the open source community. Because these innovations and differentiated features can be kept proprietary, manufacturers and mobile operators are protected from the "viral infection" problem often associated with other licenses.


More interestingly, Google has take a pile of non-Apache code from Oracle nee Sun and released it under the Apache licence without permission.

Their defence includes blaming the handset manufacturers for putting it on handsets - IE: Don't sue Google for the infringements, sue Samsung, it's their phone.

Court case is at GrokLaw. Utterly unclear which way it will go but betting against Oracle on IP law has typically gone poorly for most people. The fact that Oracle own Java and are playing "hardball with spikes" bodes ill for anyone thinking Android is going to remain free (as in beer).

Similar issues abound with WebM. There's basically zero chance Google will win that one - the code will breach multiple critical patents in the MPEG portfolio, it's a given. Feel free to hate software patents (I do) but sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "LaLaLaLa WebM doesn't have any video compression patent breaches in it because we never looked" doesn't actually work in practice.

Don't be Evil? Yeah, pull the other one.
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Re: Graphics Card Question

Postby fuzzygeek » Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:57 am

There is a long discussion about Honeycomb on ESR's blog here: http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=3071 with a fair amount of meat in the comments.
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Re: Graphics Card Question

Postby Fridmarr » Mon Apr 11, 2011 7:51 am

knaughty wrote:Android 3.0, AKA Honeycomb has, as I understand it, been released on various hardware platforms already...snip
And all of that has nothing to do with whether or not Android is Open Source, which it is. Honeycomb has not been ported to phones yet, at least in the wild. Now that's not to say that manufacturers don't have their hands on early release versions to get their work started for their Android 3.0 phones.

Patent stuff is a whole different ballgame. All of these companies are sued constantly and not just by patent trolls either, they sue each other as well. If a judge rules that there is an issue, then Google will ultimately have to comply. Hell even Linux, the hallmark of Open Source, has had major issues with this sort of thing. It's just kind of the nature business with patent laws that are way behind the times.

Flex wrote:Well the competitive advantage parts are the apps that Google provides (Maps and the Market are two) which are not and have never been open source and if reports are to believed getting access to those apps will be getting harder to accomplish.
Correct, which is partially why the whole competitive advantage notion of not releasing Honeycomb is so silly. The other part being that the source code to their previous versions has long been publicly available. I don't think Google has any interest in making those apps open source though. I don't really understand how access will be getting harder, I don't think it was ever going to happen in the first place. Unless they are EOL'd I don't see why Google would, or even should make those Open Source.
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Re: Graphics Card Question

Postby Flex » Mon Apr 11, 2011 8:07 am

Fridmarr wrote:I don't think Google has any interest in making those apps open source though. I don't really understand how access will be getting harder, I don't think it was ever going to happen in the first place. Unless they are EOL'd I don't see why Google would, or even should make those Open Source.


Just going by this piece which hasn't been refuted to any major extent, Andy Rubin for instance didn't address the early access part in his rebutal post. Basically to get early access to the newest Android code, huge competitive advantage within the hardware sector, you'll have to play by Google's rules. There's a process to get the Google apps and to use the Android name on your hardware and if that process requires more steps to be met then it is by definition harder.
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Re: Graphics Card Question

Postby Fridmarr » Mon Apr 11, 2011 8:26 am

Flex wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:I don't think Google has any interest in making those apps open source though. I don't really understand how access will be getting harder, I don't think it was ever going to happen in the first place. Unless they are EOL'd I don't see why Google would, or even should make those Open Source.


Just going by this piece which hasn't been refuted to any major extent, Andy Rubin for instance didn't address the early access part in his rebutal post. Basically to get early access to the newest Android code, huge competitive advantage within the hardware sector, you'll have to play by Google's rules. There's a process to get the Google apps and to use the Android name on your hardware and if that process requires more steps to be met then it is by definition harder.

Yeah, that's just Google controlling their brand, and Samsung probably blew that for everyone when they created the Galaxy Tab after Google told them not too, because the version of Android that existed was not designed for tablets. That does reference the Bloomberg comments though, which have been refuted as flatly incorrect.

I guess my point was why did you ever think Maps et al. was going to be made accessible and now it isn't? I didn't seen anything in that article that was dealing with either of those points.
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Re: Graphics Card Question

Postby Flex » Mon Apr 11, 2011 8:51 am

Fridmarr wrote:I guess my point was why did you ever think Maps et al. was going to be made accessible and now it isn't? I didn't seen anything in that article that was dealing with either of those points.


I am not talking about accessible as in open source, but accessible in actual access to use and install from the hardware manufacturer/carrier side. If Company A wants to use Android in a method Google doesn't approve of they would no longer have access to the Apps or the Android name. It does appear that they're just stepping up on policing actual policies that have always existed but have been inconsistently enforced.
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