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[10H] Madness of deathwing

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Re: [10H] Madness of deathwing

Postby Cema » Wed Feb 08, 2012 7:10 am

use it on schrapnels if you are targeted, not on aoe. yes it's 100% reproducible
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Re: [10H] Madness of deathwing

Postby Grommash » Wed Feb 08, 2012 11:43 am

We probably just need some more practice (only spent a night of attempts on it) but so far so good. This thread has some great info, so kudos.

We 2 tank (Blood DK/Feral) and 2 heal (RSham/Disc Priest), leaving Nozdormu last. How viable would it be to switch the order here at the end as some people have presented this option to me in raid. Obviously the DPS would be higher, but healing is A LOT harder without 20% haste, first parasite is dangerous and the bolt is obviously a big problem. The bolt itself probably isn't much of an issue but I'm more worried about the amount of CDs we have to waste to survive it to which we won't have at the end of that tentacle. I think I mostly answered my own question though. Kalecgos last doesn't seem like a great option if we 2 tank 2 heal it anyways.

Right now we are basically on the transition point between the first/second phase, with lots of time on the enrage timer (we kill the first corruption before the second impale, ignore a lot of parasites at the start and generally abuse spellweaving to it's fullest). We just need a bit more practice bouncing regenerative bloods around in order to push the last phase better. Right now I (Blood DK) get a moderate amount of aggro and our Feral gets the second most. I tank them in the yellow bubble, feral runs to the opposite side and I get a BoP in order to swap aggro. When BoP falls I attack and they ping pong back to me. AMS is a godsend here but you have to hope that you get decent RNG to which the stacks fall to 7 seconds remaining so you can reset them with AMS. Army buys a good 20-25 seconds with no blood problems as well. I suppose to guarantee that stacks reach 7 seconds remaining I could always run to the back of the platform, ask for a life grip and then AMS before they reach me.

So from what I'm reading don't use dream at all on the last phase except for shrapnel? I've never really noticed the behavior you're detailing but then again I've been doing normal mode and haven't really played around with P2 HM.

With all of the extra time we gain from 2 tank/2 heal (in addition to the 5% nerf) would it be advised to take the last phase cautiously? Basically get to the transition point, wait for adds and take our time? Or is the damage just that crazy that staying at 10/5% (I assume 15% isn't that bad) for prolonged periods of time a bad idea? I assume you use a major CD for the 10% interval and another (and every CD you have left) for the 5% interval. I am super interested in just having people save their major CDs and a potion, snaring and just burning the boss while ignoring regenerative blood for the 5% to death push.

I am really thinking of changing my trinket choice just to reduce damage in P2 and the prolonged period of tanking the bloods right before P2. I think with proper resets it might not be an issue, but as it stands my current trinket choice isn't doing much either. Our Feral usually tank the entirety of the corruption while I build an enormous Blood shield for the second impale. Basically if everything goes right I can take an impale with bone shield and stay of execution, essentially sitting on IBF for emergency situations. Which works out alright because our DPS is usually ahead and it sometimes messes up our major CDs on impales, so in that case I swap places with our Feral if her CD isn't up. Currently I use Heroic Indomitable Pride and Stay of Execution, but I am seriously contemplating dropping it for my Heroic stacking dodge trinket from spine.
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Re: [10H] Madness of deathwing

Postby Cema » Wed Feb 08, 2012 8:31 pm

I think I mostly answered my own question though.


This ^^


But speaking about P2, no you're not in a hurry since the 5% nerf happened. If you think you have to wait for a wave of schrapnels/terrors before pushing the boss to 11 and 10% do it.

We were doing our 4th Heroic madness tonight and we didn't kill it because people hurried too much. We wiped twice due to some retarded dps pushing the boss under 11% when the second schrapnels were supposed to spawn. What happened? People began to take insane aoe damages during schrapnels and then the terrors spawned and the boss fell under 10% and blood spawned too at a different place and healers had to heal tanks while the raid was taking big aoe damage and dps weren't able to dps terrors and bloods at the same time because there were too far away ... short story ... we died

Don't hurry
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Re: [10H] Madness of deathwing

Postby Valour » Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:15 pm

Just got our first H Madness kill tonight, it was 25man so a few things may not apply to 10man (not sure), but I'll say a few things about our tanking (used 2 prot pallies btw):

For phase 2, on the elementium terrors I would taunt both of them first, drag them in the time zone, and pop Holy Shield + DP + AD fairly quickly, and after a few seconds the other tank would taunt both off of me from the opposite end of the platform (and then drag them to the first set of bloods). The terrors would die soon after the bloods, I would taunt off him after the bloods died. (so, they started on me, then went to him, then to me, then died).

(btw Divine Shield clears stacks of tetanus from the Terrors, can be very helpful!!!)

For the second round of terrors, we did basically the same thing but more back-and-forth (i.e. ping ponging them) across the final platform. The travel time helped immensely, by the time they reached one of us, the other one was basically cleared of all stacks and ready to taunt again.

For the record, we did not kill the 2nd set of terrors, mainly because we pushed deathwing below 10% after the first set of adds. I'm not sure if it's much different on 10man, but in 25 the AOE damage for going below 11% was not too terrible (it only really picked up below 6%). We got our 2nd set of terrors right before the third and final wave of bloods. We'd kill bloods and then keep ping-ponging the terrors till Deathwing died.

Impales are pretty easy once you know what you need to survive. The other tank and I always Sac'd each other for each impale. Used pain suppression on the last 2 platforms (PS and GoaK were up for platform 3 and 4 both, just due to our timing).

Good luck to everyone shooting for a kill, it's a good bit simpler than Spine imo, at least it was for us in 25 man =)
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Re: [10H] Madness of deathwing

Postby timoseewho » Wed Feb 08, 2012 11:51 pm

We have been placing the first parasite beside the corruptions so far, but have random times when people just die from the DoT of the parasites (before the actual parasites spawn). My question is, does going into the time zone also slow the DoT portion of the mechanic? We always send the second parasite into the time zone, and the carriers never die, but I'm not sure if it's just a coincidence.
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Re: [10H] Madness of deathwing

Postby Galiks » Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:11 am

timoseewho wrote:We have been placing the first parasite beside the corruptions so far, but have random times when people just die from the DoT of the parasites (before the actual parasites spawn). My question is, does going into the time zone also slow the DoT portion of the mechanic? We always send the second parasite into the time zone, and the carriers never die, but I'm not sure if it's just a coincidence.


Yes, bubble slows the DoT ticking. Always run in there if you can.



Questions:

1. Is it advised to place all the parasites next to corruptions for spellweave cleave, and is it really that noticeable?

2. Having major problems killing the congealing bloods during phase 2. It just seems that we can kill a large number due to spellcleave, but some fall behind and we are left with a few (so they no longer can be cleaved down from multiple spellweaves) that trickle in. Is something going wrong here? Usually do hunter trap -> blastwave/glyphed shadowflame. Just can't seem to finish them.

3. Is it possible/advised to just burn Deathwing from 6% under while ignoring the new bloods spawning? We will have bloodlust along with 6 DPS + 1 Tank. A trap will be placed for slowing. I'm not sure if our healers can keep up if we have to move around to burn bloods.
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Re: [10H] Madness of deathwing

Postby Kitmajere » Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:31 am

Cema wrote:use it on schrapnels if you are targeted, not on aoe. yes it's 100% reproducible


Do you use it on the 5% aoe damage or just not at all except for shrapnel?
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Re: [10H] Madness of deathwing

Postby Grommash » Thu Feb 09, 2012 5:16 am

We changed from doing Noz last to Kalecgos last night using our 2 tank/2 heal strategy and it mostly seems to be working out better.

Sucks, timing has to be pretty exact on the last platform or you will wipe pretty much instantly. Taking the bolt usually means you aren't going to have a lot of CDs when you're burning the wing tentacle (we use lust to kill that first parasite quickly). We tend to ignore the last wave of blistering and use whatever CDs we have left. We didn't make it when doing it this way last night, but that's because of some massive screw ups and taking way too much damage prior too.

I heard some people will just ignore every add at 6% (even the regenerative bloods) and just zerg the boss? How easily is this done? I imagine with 2 tank/2 heal, a DPS potion an assorted CDs it could be quite possible to burn the boss the last 3-3.5% assuming you keep the bloods snared the entire time.
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Re: [10H] Madness of deathwing

Postby Cema » Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:19 am

Ignoring adds at 6% is stupid. You have no idea how fast they run, even while snared. Before you drop the boss under 2% you would have 10 bloods on him

It's seriously not necessary to hurry

Do you use it on the 5% aoe damage


Yes we do at 6% because there is no more raid cooldown. Then our healers burn their mana for the last 20 seconds of the fight to keep us alive
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Re: [10H] Madness of deathwing

Postby Masanori » Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:31 pm

We've been working on this encounter for about two days now, with the first having spent some time tackling Impales. However, now that our DPS have gotten significantly more confident with the encounter, I'm running into a fairly big issue: my cooldowns aren't prepared for the next time Impale goes out.

Here's my cooldowns per Impale I tank (the second one) on every platform except Ysera's:
Guardian of Ancient Kings, Ardent Defender, Stay of Execution + Guarded by the Light, Delayed Judgement

Of course, this isn't counting our Disc's Shields, Inspiration, or our Holy Paladin's mastery. Divine Protection is used on other mechanics instead to give me more freedom and since if Guardian wasn't up then I wouldn't survive it anyway, Defender goes well with it for the reduction in my opinion.

But therein lies my issue. Without Guardian running, it'll kill me - but some platforms my Guardian has 15-20 seconds left on it's cooldown when I'm getting impaled.. How do you guys handle them? Am I using too many cooldowns and should the 20% ones just be excluded? Externals from others aren't possible since they're all being used elsewhere.

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Re: [10H] Madness of deathwing

Postby timoseewho » Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:06 am

So my guild finally managed to see P2 in action and now the question of which burn method to use is looming. It was discussed a little earlier in the thread, but any way I look at it, I look at the 12%->dead burn better than the 17->7% one (I look at lingering at 7% killing fragments/terrors as more time for us to die to the AoE). For our comp, we use the 1T/3H strategy with a feral DPS/tank soaking an impale, doing the blue platform last. Our healers are all but a holy Paladin, and tank is a Paladin. The rest of our DPS is a fDK, sHunter, fiMage, aWarlock, and cRogue. Anyone have any suggestions? Also, we don't have a lust/warp in P2 available.

A slightly unrelated question, does anyone purposely keep a blood up on the platforms to DoT up to proc more Spellweaving onto the tentacles?
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Re: [10H] Madness of deathwing

Postby Kitmajere » Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:33 am

Masanori wrote:We've been working on this encounter for about two days now, with the first having spent some time tackling Impales. However, now that our DPS have gotten significantly more confident with the encounter, I'm running into a fairly big issue: my cooldowns aren't prepared for the next time Impale goes out.

Here's my cooldowns per Impale I tank (the second one) on every platform except Ysera's:
Guardian of Ancient Kings, Ardent Defender, Stay of Execution + Guarded by the Light, Delayed Judgement

Of course, this isn't counting our Disc's Shields, Inspiration, or our Holy Paladin's mastery. Divine Protection is used on other mechanics instead to give me more freedom and since if Guardian wasn't up then I wouldn't survive it anyway, Defender goes well with it for the reduction in my opinion.

But therein lies my issue. Without Guardian running, it'll kill me - but some platforms my Guardian has 15-20 seconds left on it's cooldown when I'm getting impaled.. How do you guys handle them? Am I using too many cooldowns and should the 20% ones just be excluded? Externals from others aren't possible since they're all being used elsewhere.

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Are you free to use your healer's cds? The only one you really need is the PS on the third platform. If you don't have the Hand of Sacrifice available, use divine protection (I instead had mine glyphed since I was solo tanking and wanted it for bloods/terrors). You should be able to use it since you can Sac your co-tank (or whoever else was getting the sac) if you're two-tanking.
I use:
First platform - Stay of Execution, Dream, Hand of Sacrifice
Second platform - Stay of Execution, Guardian of Ancient Kings, Hand of Sacrifice
Third platform - Stay of Execution, Pain Suppression, Ardent Defender, Hand of Sacrifice, WoG bubble
Fourth platform - Stay of Execution, Guardian of Ancient Kings, Hand of Sacrifice
It's not a bad idea to have a WoG bubble and delayed judgement for every impale, just the third platform is the touchiest so I made sure I had it up there. I'm also not counting shields, and holy pally mastery - I always had a comfortable hp remaining after impale with the above setup, and that was using stay and mirror of broken images as my trinkets.

Also, I read earlier in the thread that you can reverse roles with your co-tank (or impale soaker) from platforms 1-2 and 3-4 (who takes the first impale), so that all of your 3min are up every time. This may be necessary if your co-tank was already relying on the PS somewhere. Keep in mind that barrier can be used as a tank cd as well if absolutely needed.
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Re: [10H] Madness of deathwing

Postby d07.RiV » Fri Feb 10, 2012 2:28 pm

Is 2 tank + 3 heal viable at this point? We're sometimes pushing close to cataclysm on 3rd platform (if we spend too much time on bloods) so I guess 4th will be a big problem (maybe our mage completing the legendary would help). We have dk/feral or dk/paladin for tanks, and druid/priest/shaman for heals. We tried 2 healing, druid/paladin because priest and shaman were less geared alts and would run out of mana, but we ran into a problem with impales. 6 DPS meant well under 3 minutes per platform = no major cds for impale, and no health increase/shields. I switched to 410 vortex over 391 scales, and stay of execution. Last pull I got a crit WoG for 90k, hand of sac and I think warrior's rallying cry, and had only a tiny bit left - I'm considering gemming full stamina, ignoring all caps. I looked at an armory of a paladin that got our server's first kill last week, he's in pretty low gear with all stamina gems.
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Re: [10H] Madness of deathwing

Postby Kitmajere » Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:44 pm

2 tank + 3 heal has always been viable (although I question the number of legendaries present in some of those early logs :-p). It is rather common to do this with a feral though, to abuse cat-bear dps.
I also switched to straight stamina gems - there's really no reason not to, especially on those silly +avoidance socket bonuses omnipresent this tier. I changed my meta to the spell damage reduction one as well, since degenerative bite from the bloods and tetanus were what's scary for me (and block/armor don't work on impales).

Edit: In the end I used stay of execution reforged to mastery and mirror of broken images so I ended up being block capped; I wasn't for early attempts and that went fine, just mirror is very strong for what was the tank killer for me.
Random aside - if you have a shadow priest you can ask them to shield you if you have any very close impales, or make sure your pally healer sits there spamming you building up a mastery shield (mine would even LoH me for the large pre-shield if our cds somehow got completely messed up). Missing 10% physical dmg reduction from a priest or shammy healer would be annoying though, on top of their yummy hp/shields. I do suggest decoupling GoAK and AD though, using both at once just leaves you vulnerable when platforms are sub 3 min - or try the rotating who takes the first impale suggested earlier in the thread.
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Re: [10H] Madness of deathwing

Postby Grommash » Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:06 am

Switched to 3 healers and overall the encounter just seems a lot safer, and quite a bit smoother. Disc priest DPS really isn't all that bad either.

We almost consistently get to the last phase with really awesome mana. The problem is reliably snaring the bloods. Has anybody done this without a Hunter? They just seem downright godly for making sure everything is snared 50% right from the start.

We do the whole:

-Burn to 17%
-Kill Shrapnel
-Terrors spawn, push boss sub 17%
-AoE Terrors on top of congealing blood
-Burn boss to 12%
-Kill Shrapnel
-Terrors spawn, push boss sub 12%.

From that point we would probably burn the boss, and well of course AoE down the last set of congealing.
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