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[10H] Ultraxion

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Re: [10H] Ultraxion

Postby Hrobertgar » Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:57 pm

Admittedly, I don't know exact CDs on tank CDs, so those could probably change based on 2m or 3m.


As far as tanks go, I believe most tank CDs are 3min, but remember the Last Defender buff gives tank CDs 1/2 CD time 3min -> 1.5 min and 2x duration so 12 sec -> 24 secs. So each tank can have their big CD up for every other Hour of Twilight, depending on who is out for it. Plus they can use secondary CDs sometimes as well. The implication is that with 2 tanks w/4pc you can have tank CDs up 1/2 time or better: 24 secs + 24 secs every 1.5 mins or 48 secs out of 90 secs.

As far as wings, I thought that was a 3min CD like Divine Favor, and you are showing it at 2mins, unless you meant DivPlea or have wings talented for 2mins.

Finally, I'm not certain how you have separate Healer and raid Heroism, unless you are going to cast it during trash and have the raid sacrifice themselves to clear the debuff.
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Re: [10H] Ultraxion

Postby Adornus » Tue Jan 03, 2012 3:07 pm

Wings gets talented down to 2 min in the Holy Tree.

If you have two raid members with hero, if the healers hit their button as the pull goes off, and hero is hit a second later, the healers will not get heroism because they are in the normal realm and not the twilight realm. That's a big help for groups out there struggling to meet DPS/HPS requirements; DPS can benefit most at the start of the pull (with prepotting and all members in twilight realm) and healers benefit more later when spamming heals.

If you have one mage/shaman, have them do it at the start of the pull, then again when it comes off CD at 5min.

Also, big tank CDs shouldn't be used for Hour of Twilight. Pallies with Bubble or gylphed divprot, spreists, hunters, fire mages, etc do not need external cooldowns for Hour of Twilight.
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Re: [10H] Ultraxion

Postby Phonic » Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:41 pm

So if you 3 Heal it, how many HoTs will you get? Still 7?

Thanks in advance!
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Re: [10H] Ultraxion

Postby madmessias » Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:25 pm

Phonic wrote:So if you 3 Heal it, how many HoTs will you get? Still 7?

Thanks in advance!

Think you get an 8th in 25m, so should be same in 10m.

Need 230k dps to beat the enrage, so healers gotta dps aswell.
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Re: [10H] Ultraxion

Postby Kishandra » Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:05 pm

The 8th HoT is the 6 minute hard enrage (8*0:45 = 6:00), he wipes the raid group when he finishes casting it so you have 6:03 to kill the boss.
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Re: [10H] Ultraxion

Postby Arincia » Mon Jan 16, 2012 7:50 pm

Ok my guild has spent the last 2 weeks working on this boss (around 50-60 pulls to date) and we while we have overcome the hot/zone out mechanic we seem to be hitting a wall of where we are just short by 6-8% wipes on the boss around 5:20-5:25. We use lust at the beginning (healers zone out and we have to use lust after our 2nd healer gets green to catch up on healing) we have a druid and pally healer going: red (druid), green>blue (pally). Pulling around 235-250k rdps but the healing feels underpar. So any help or advice is welcomed:

(best log attempt no deaths http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/xhpm ... 09&e=11329 )
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Re: [10H] Ultraxion

Postby Kishandra » Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:32 pm

Seeing as how Ultraxion is more or less a numbers check, there's no real strategical advice anyone can give.

However, there are many things the raid could do better in executing the fight. Let me put aside the obvious "do more dps/healing", because that's always a choice, and examine some other issues that are more easily looked at:

* Healing is trivial at the start of the fight. If healers are bored there (and they will be), why not do dps instead? Have your resto pop treeform and wrath spam at the start, then continue doing nothing but dps until red comes out. Druid picks up red, then paladin does nothing but dps until green comes out, at which point both healers probably need to start healing to keep the raid up. On our first kill (25m), our 5 healers did a combined total of nearly 9 million damage to Ultrax. At the same ratio, 2 healers would be able to do 3.5 mil, which would've made the wipe you linked something around a 0.5% wipe. Not a kill, for sure, but a helluva lot closer.

* Tanks need to focus on dps. Between 100% uptime shield block and the low melee output of Ultrax in the first place, it is a good idea to cap expertise/hit and focus on rotations. Strange as it may seem, generally the best place to squeeze out extra damage on any Ultrax-like encounter is to optimize the tanks for damage. If you were to increase your dps to the level of the other prot pally in the raid, for example, you'd do over 2 mil more damage to Ultrax over the course of the fight. Which, again, like the above, would not be enough to kill him on that best pull of yours, but would've easily made it a kill when combined.

* If all else fails, yell at your dps to do more damage. This late into the tier, there is quite literally zero reason for any dedicated raider to do under 36k dps, and that's the worst spec of the worst class.

* Potions, potions, potions. Haytum and Lessqqmorepp are the only ones in the raid that both used a pre-pot and a combat potion. The shaman and rogue both used a potion in combat. No one else in the raid potted for the fight. My numbers put a single potion use on a dps to be worth about 150k, and you're looking at a potential 16 pots for the 8 tanks+dps while only 6 are being used, you lost about 1.5 mil damage from people being too cheap to raid.

* Rogue isn't doing his rotation correctly. 75% uptime on slice and dice is pretty horrible. Furthermore, only 7 feints in the entire fight, with 32 possible. I understand that rogues are energy capped some of the time (during heroism and adrenaline rush) but that isn't nearly enough to account for missing 25 feints.

* Druid has worse than awful harmony uptime. He could probably improve his healing numbers by up to 20% *purely* by keeping that one buff up. Not to mention that with efflorescence being his top source of healing, he was only hitting swiftmend about once every 27 seconds instead of every 15.

* Hunter was raptor striking and ele shaman was using healing rain. Why? Their time is better spent on damaging Ultrax while the healers cover damage better.


If you're at sub 5% wipes, it's just going to be a matter of small tweaks and optimizations until the boss is down, like the ones I listed above. Good luck.
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Re: [10H] Ultraxion

Postby Arincia » Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:42 pm

Well thanks for that constructive criticism their picking logs isn't my specialty so I greatly appreciate that help for areas to focus on.
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Re: [10H] Ultraxion

Postby jekoh » Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:14 am

kishandra is right in what said but it is clear that dying at 5.25 stay clearly a problem of heal and/or raid def cd rotation and for me it is
We have also to keep in mind that data collected during the fight maybe altered when the person is using the heroic will (nobody will have the same recount at the end so it the same with the data collected to world of log)

But

- bloodlust is used in the middle of the fight and I can see the debuff "sated" on the palaheal so your healers may not have the bloodlust effect when they need at the end of the fight
It is well accepted that it is better (and you can do it) to pop bloodlust or timewarp at the beggining when no dps need to clic heroic will and when all buffs autoproc with healers using heroic will to avoid to have the bloodlust and the debuff so that the second person can pop a new bloodlust or timewarp in the last minute when needed for heal

- raid def cd is not used when needed. You and all people have to be sure that all raid cd are up for the last minute
in the last minute you have only one divine gardien where as you have 2 palatanks and given the fact the duration is doubled with thrall aura this raid cd is very strong. Aura mastery is not used at a correct timing so is not available at the end, it is the same with the drood tranqui. Only war rallying cry is used when necessary

So for me whatever the dps is, without a better organisation of raid cd and bloodlust for heal popped when you enter the last minute you will face a wall

before the fight you have to organize the raid cd rotation so that even with bloodlust you have also constantly a raid cd used among all available at that time including personal cd for healers and volcanic potions for healers ( none healers used)
With you compo :
- divine guardien (x2)
- rallying cry
- aura mastery
- tranquility

from my 10hm point of view and this try with 5m19 duration you have the dps beat him
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Re: [10H] Ultraxion

Postby Juugimus » Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:51 am

I might be mistaken but I don't think Aura mastery helps on this fight because none of his damage is resistable.
Last edited by Juugimus on Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [10H] Ultraxion

Postby Rhiannon » Tue Jan 17, 2012 5:05 am

Juugimus wrote:I might be mistaken but I don't think Aura mastery helps on this fight because non of his damage is resistable.


You're correct, resistance is useless on this fight.
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Re: [10H] Ultraxion

Postby Fenrìr » Tue Jan 17, 2012 6:43 am

Rhiannon wrote:You're correct, resistance is useless on this fight.



Is this true? I know my rouge was crying I did not run Resistance Aura and let the shaman drop Stoneskin Totem. I felt like I saw quite a bit of resistances (guess I need to relook at the logs).

Granted we killed it within 5 attempts I do not think this Aura made or broke our attempts.
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Re: [10H] Ultraxion

Postby Fenrìr » Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:23 am

Hrm, cheers, Rhiannon. I just got done looking a bit more at ours and I'm assuming that I was seeing 2P T13 absorbs.

And now that I'm scrolling over the ability, it does flatout state "unresistable". GG looking at things sparingly.
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Re: [10H] Ultraxion

Postby Phonic » Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:30 pm

Thanks for all the help everyone! We killed this last night with less then 1 hour of attempts (we hadn't tried it before).

Just get a good rotation and follow it. Pallies are AMAZING tanks and healers for this. 30 sec Sac, 1 min raid wall, and bubble are all crazy nice for this fight. Rogues are OP as well :p
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