[10H] Ragnaros

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Re: [10H] Ragnaros

Postby timoseewho » Thu Sep 22, 2011 10:29 am

Adornus wrote:What do you think the DPS requirement is to push one meteor in P3?

After observing a few videos, you want to get Ragnaros to ~37% before he submerges and then to ~20% when the first meteor drops, any more than 20% when the first meteor drops, you risk getting a second one. This is all assuming that you use lust/warp in P3 AND pretty much kill the scions before P3 starts. If you push at 36%, you have 90 seconds (meteors take 45 secs to spawn I THINK or is it 40) to do 26%, which is 19.24M (out of 74M total), which is 35.6k DPS from your SIX DPS (calculated base on the 90 sec timer), and this isn't including the tanks, which should shave a good couple k's from your DPS requirement (approximately 3-4k depending on how proactive your tanks are). Keep in mind you have lust/warp for half of the burn and use CD's! Keep in mind all this calculation is if nothing's going on in P3, but there's a lot going on:[.
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Re: [10H] Ragnaros

Postby Adornus » Thu Sep 22, 2011 10:42 am

timoseewho wrote:
Adornus wrote:What do you think the DPS requirement is to push one meteor in P3?

I dunno about the DPS requirement but after observing a few videos, you want to get Ragnaros to ~37% before he submerges and then to ~20% when the first meteor drops, any more than 20% when the first meteor drops, you risk getting a second one. This is all assuming that you use lust/warp in P3 AND pretty much kill the scions before P3 starts. If you push at 36%, you have 90 seconds (meteors take 45 secs to spawn I THINK or is it 40) to do 26%, however HP that amounts to and you can calculate the DPS:].

Ok, that's about exactly what I was thinking. Getting him to 26% will take about 27k DPS I believe assuming tanks do around 13k. Figured lust/pots/big CDs should all be used, and possibly saving them for 20% for the execute phase.
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Re: [10H] Ragnaros

Postby Belloc » Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:02 am

Another benchmark comparison would be: If you can finish phase 2 with no more than 2 sets of adds, you've probably got what it takes for a 1 meteor phase 3.
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Re: [10H] Ragnaros

Postby Adornus » Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:07 am

Belloc wrote:Another benchmark comparison would be: If you can finish phase 2 with no more than 2 sets of adds, you've probably got what it takes for a 1 meteor phase 3.

Damn. We're close on that but haven't done it. We usually get to about 3% left before the last set of adds and actually stop DPS for a couple of seconds.
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Re: [10H] Ragnaros

Postby fafhrd » Thu Sep 22, 2011 12:50 pm

Belloc wrote:Another benchmark comparison would be: If you can finish phase 2 with no more than 2 sets of adds, you've probably got what it takes for a 1 meteor phase 3.


That doesn't seem a good enough metric, we've been able to do that for weeks, but pushing P3 in 1 meteor is still very troublesome for us. Mostly it happens when he's casting engulfing flames when the meteor timer is up, giving us extra time to push him to 7%, which appears to be when he switches to P4.

I suspect our weakest point is getting him low before he submerges, because he's usually above 37%, as too many people wander off to get ready for sons. Other than that:

- we can kill scions before he emerges
- we're saving cooldowns and army and pots and heroism and everything else for when he emerges
- people aren't running around until flames start spawning
- people aren't kiting meteors (raid is split to sides, we try to leave the meteors in the middle, with mostly healers hitting them in p3)
- tanks are each doing 16-20k dps
- people are specced for the fight, some of the casters are using sorrowsong, etc

Yet we're still usually a couple of percent short of the push. Depressing. Our last attempt looks like only 3 people broke 30k for P3, and not by very much: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/awua ... 71&e=12562

We are getting better at it though, last few attempts last night may have worked if we didn't have a backup dpser filling in in 378s, or someone dying and getting ressed.

Is there any particular trick to getting him to delay the meteor spawn in favour of casting Engulfing Flames, other than just pushing him to ~10% quickly?
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Re: [10H] Ragnaros

Postby baleogthefierce » Thu Sep 22, 2011 12:56 pm

Ditto that. We can easily do phase 2 with 2 sets of adds but cannot push 1 meteor to save our lives, so I think it also depends a lot on if you have strong execute classes in your raid or not. We started off falling short by about 4%, had our hunter respec for more execute DPS and pushed it to missing the DPS check by only 1%. If we had a DPS warrior or warlock I think we'd be there already.

We also found it easier to push him to 36% before a submerge if you stop DPS at 42%, wait for the next set of seeds to spawn/die, then resume DPS right before he does World in Flames (as he will not begin the transition phase until 3 engulfing flames have gone out). That should give you an extra few % before he submerges.

We are trying him again Sunday and both tanks are respeccing for maximum DPS, and our healers will be helping in the opening moments of phase 3 when no meteors are up. Hopefully that does the trick for us because phase 4 is worlds easier with only one meteor.
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Re: [10H] Ragnaros

Postby Adornus » Thu Sep 22, 2011 12:59 pm

From all the numbers I've crunched, it seems like you have the DPS. Judging from the log here, you should be pushing P4 with one. I'm confused. Are your scions staying up too long? Are you killing the last son too early?

I was looking at this log of yours:

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/awua ... 171&e=9282

baleogthefierce wrote:We also found it easier to push him to 36% before a submerge if you stop DPS at 42%, wait for the next set of seeds to spawn/die, then resume DPS right before he does World in Flames (as he will not begin the transition phase until 3 engulfing flames have gone out). That should give you an extra few % before he submerges.


Maybe that's why our RL has been calling for DPS stops to make sure the third set of seeds will come out.
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Re: [10H] Ragnaros

Postby fafhrd » Thu Sep 22, 2011 1:12 pm

Adornus wrote:From all the numbers I've crunched, it seems like you have the DPS. Judging from the log here, you should be pushing P4 with one. I'm confused. Are your scions staying up too long? Are you killing the last son too early?

I was looking at this log of yours:

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/awua ... 171&e=9282

baleogthefierce wrote:We also found it easier to push him to 36% before a submerge if you stop DPS at 42%, wait for the next set of seeds to spawn/die, then resume DPS right before he does World in Flames (as he will not begin the transition phase until 3 engulfing flames have gone out). That should give you an extra few % before he submerges.


Maybe that's why our RL has been calling for DPS stops to make sure the third set of seeds will come out.


In that log, the tanks/dots finished off the scions while the rest of the raid switched to rag once heroism went up. I know there are a couple of attempts in that night's logs that did push in 1, I wish I knew which - they were both ones where he deferred spawning the 2nd meteor because he was casting world in flames, not because we beat the timer properly.

*Usually* we don't kill the last son early and either kill scions before he emerges or have them low enough to be cleaved down by tanks/dks.

If he transitioned at 10%, we'd probably beat it every time, but he doesn't seem to transition till 7%.

We'll try your suggestion of waiting for a 3rd set of seeds Baelog thanks. Through no particular effort we seem to have drifted into a ridiculously overpowered comp for seed killing, so that shouldn't hurt other than adding more time per attempt for someone to screw something up, and using some more healer mana. We'd probably gain some extra cooldowns being up for P3 that way too - I think our feral is missing something when we push in 2 sets of seeds.
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Re: [10H] Ragnaros

Postby Adornus » Thu Sep 22, 2011 1:22 pm

Let's be honest, after the 15% damage reduction, healer mana isn't nearly the issue it once was :)

Just looking at your logs Fafhrd, you guys easily have the DPS to do 1 meteor every time. I think it sounds like pushing to three seed sets may help you out.
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Re: [10H] Ragnaros

Postby Belloc » Thu Sep 22, 2011 2:13 pm

I also imagine that switching your warlock to Demo would push you over as well. That's an extra 4% spell power for your casters and a major cooldown (demon form) for phase 3.

I'm honestly quite surprised to see a destro warlock in a log for heroic rag attempts. Surprised to see a destro lock period!
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Re: [10H] Ragnaros

Postby fafhrd » Thu Sep 22, 2011 3:21 pm

I think we'd lose replenishment if we did that. Usually we have an spriest instead of the 2nd DK to cover that, but not this week.

I think he originally went destro also for the stuns, but I don't think that's necessary with sons as they are right now.

Does the moonkin not provide the spellpower buff too? I'm not terribly familiar with caster buffs these days.
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Re: [10H] Ragnaros

Postby Belloc » Thu Sep 22, 2011 3:27 pm

Negative -- for a full 10% spell power buff, you need a demo lock or an elemental shaman. I had to look it up, though, so no worries on that one :P

Replenishment makes sense, though.

Heh, I tried to find out which had a higher DPS parse between Destro and Demo and... well, there were no parses that included a destro warlock. So, if nothing else, he'd get #1 :P
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Re: [10H] Ragnaros

Postby Adornus » Thu Sep 22, 2011 3:35 pm

So here's a good point that was just brought up in guild forums. Our Prot Warrior says that Burning Wound kept falling off during engulfing flames, and inbetween he'd get up to 5-6 stacks. If that's the case, could he fulltime tank and have our bear go cat for entire P3. All the warrior and myself (hpal) would have to do is rotate CDs (e.g. Sac) once he got to 4 stacks each time.

Have you guys had the same experience?
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Re: [10H] Ragnaros

Postby Kishandra » Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:28 pm

Burning wounds falling off is more a matter of luck than anything. When one of our tanks dc'ed in the middle of the second transition and we had to one tank phase 3, the tank got up to 22 stacks before it fell.

Needless to say, 22 stacks is probably a -bit- too much ...

Furthermore, Ragnaros stops casting meteors at 10.5% no matter if he's submerged or not. He will probably take an extra few seconds to do his last casts, emotes, what have you, but if you push him to 10.5% before the meteor timer comes up, he won't drop a meteor again. Our iffy p3 dps has shaved by p3 with under half a second left on the meteor too many times to count ><
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Re: [10H] Ragnaros

Postby fafhrd » Thu Sep 22, 2011 5:16 pm

Belloc wrote:Negative -- for a full 10% spell power buff, you need a demo lock or an elemental shaman. I had to look it up, though, so no worries on that one :P


I don't get how our casters don't complain about this kind of thing ... it takes all of 5 seconds of sunders being incomplete or windfury being missing for me to mention it on vent, never mind going a week of attempts on the final boss of a tier missing 4% of what I'd guess is probably your best stat...
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