[10H] Ragnaros

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[10H] Ragnaros

Postby timoseewho » Thu Aug 18, 2011 12:19 am

Hello, to anyone working on heroic Ragnaros now or have some insight on the fight, I just have a couple of questions! I'd like to thank this community for helping us get where we are now. I know I state 10-man here since I'm in a 10-man guild, but I'm sure it's pretty similar on 25-man, so feel free to input too! My guild will be starting on this fight starting tomorrow and I know we probably have a long journey ahead of us, but it should prove to be fun. So from what I can gather:

P1: Magma Trap Eruption gives the raid a debuff increasing damage taken from other traps for 30 seconds.
P1.5: Sons of Flames spawn point randomized.
P2: Molten Elementals buff each other when close to each other (similar to the little adds on Maloriak). Also, Engulfing Flame happens in 3-4 successions.
P2.5: Sons of Flames spawn point randomized.
P3: Besides the carried over Engulfing Flame change, I can't see anything different from the meteors.
P4: Drag meteors into Breadth of Frosts, grab Deluge from Cloudbursts and put out Dreadflames, and drag Ragnaros over Entrapping Roots.

My main questions are, during the transitions, Sons of Flames locations seem randomized, and so instead of the 2-6, 4-4, 6-2 spawns on regular, are there more combinations (ie. 1-7, 3-5, 5-3, etc.)? Do the meteors in P3 speed up at all depending on how many times it has been knocked back? I'm also a little bit curious about what this World in Flames (buff/debuff?) does. Last but not least, P4 seems to be the most confusing, so what is the reason for letting the meteors chase people instead of just popping them in the Breadth of Frost and eliminate them out of the equation? How long does this Breadth of Frost last for? Where does Dreadflame start and does it start at the beginning of P4? About Cloudburst, do I just need to touch the AoE to gain the Deluge effect? Again, I'm not expecting all questions to be answered but I just want to go in with a little more idea of the fight:].
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Re: [10H] Ragnaros

Postby Treck » Thu Aug 18, 2011 4:50 am

timoseewho wrote:My main questions are, during the transitions, Sons of Flames locations seem randomized, and so instead of the 2-6, 4-4, 6-2 spawns on regular, are there more combinations (ie. 1-7, 3-5, 5-3, etc.)?

No, there is no regular combination of spawns that you can prepare for, its just random and you have to adapt.

timoseewho wrote:Do the meteors in P3 speed up at all depending on how many times it has been knocked back?

They speed up the longer they have been focusing on one target.
Whenever they are knocked back, their speed is reset.
If someone dies/invis etc, with a meteor on them it will change target and it will NOT reset its speed, thus you really wanna knock them whenever you need it to change target.

timoseewho wrote:I'm also a little bit curious about what this World in Flames (buff/debuff?) does.

Its just a buff the boss has when hes casting Engulfing flame.
Instead of one Engulfing that last for like 30sec, he casts 4 in a row, each lasting like 2 ticks.
He doesnt hit the tank during this since he i "casting" its also a buff on him.


timoseewho wrote:Last but not least, P4 seems to be the most confusing, so what is the reason for letting the meteors chase people instead of just popping them in the Breadth of Frost and eliminate them out of the equation?

You do kite them into the breaths to kill them, you just cant do that right away.
The breath disapears a few seconds after a meteor is trapped in it, so trapping one asap would mean you will die from superheated before the next breath spawns.
Not sure about the dps requirements in 10man, but you might have to deal with 2 meteros just like in 25man.
Possibly if your dps is high enough one meteor is doable, but 2 should work aswell.



timoseewho wrote:How long does this Breadth of Frost last for?

There can only be 2 breath of frost up at once.
So the first breath despawns when the 3rd one is about to spawn.
Its time based so even if you destroy the 2nd Breath, the first one goes away right before the 3rd one is about to spawn.



timoseewho wrote:Where does Dreadflame start and does it start at the beginning of P4? About Cloudburst, do I just need to touch the AoE to gain the Deluge effect?

It starts spawning about 10-15 sec or so after he comes up from the lava, in 25man he spawns 5 spawns of Dreadflame, i guess he only drops 2-3 in 10man.
It spawns in completely random parts of the room, so its all about moving around and seeing it as it spawns to remove it quickly and not let it spread out of control to early.
They spawn every 35sec in the beginning, but it starts spawning faster and faster, and in the end it spawns every 10sec, making it very hard to control for to long.
Its important to note that the Cloudburst spawns like 5sec after the dreadflame, and then it takes a few more seconds for the person handling it to reach it, and then go to the dreadflame to remove it, so the first one is going to be a few more seconds should it be spawning close to the first breath.
You right click the Cloudburst to gain the buff.
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Re: [10H] Ragnaros

Postby timoseewho » Thu Aug 18, 2011 7:48 am

O geez, excellent! Thanks so much. For some reason on Wowhead, World in Flames from Ragnaros was linking to a Mage's talent so I got that confused hahaha, but this is good, thanks! So Enfulfing Flame is actually called THAT on heroic.

By the way, how do you deal with Molten Seeds? I was thinking totally relying on the BW/DBM timers as the timer hits 2-3 seconds, have the whole group (which is already collapsed) start running to the opposite side and disperse after the seeds hit the ground. Also, is 2-healing pretty much necessary on 10? Is standing in the Breadth of Frost enough to gain its benefits and is there a limit to how many players can benefit from it? Thanks.
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Re: [10H] Ragnaros

Postby Treck » Thu Aug 18, 2011 9:39 am

timoseewho wrote:By the way, how do you deal with Molten Seeds? I was thinking totally relying on the BW/DBM timers as the timer hits 2-3 seconds, have the whole group (which is already collapsed) start running to the opposite side and disperse after the seeds hit the ground.

It depends a lot on what timers there are and who made them.
We all run with our own version of bigwigs with our own timers, since we know them so well, not sure how the "official" bigwigs timers are, but in any case they take their target a sec or 2 before they actually jump up from the lava.
So if the timer is for the moment lava jumps up, you should start running when theres 1 sec left.
Some run with a modified version that calculates and counts down to the moment when they take their target, rather than when they jump up from the lava, if thats the case, start running at 0.

timoseewho wrote:Also, is 2-healing pretty much necessary on 10?

do you mean that you wanna 3 heal it?
Some guilds use 3 healer in 25man, 2 healers is more than fine in 10man.
If you have a resto druid you will be beyond fine.
If not, the other 2 healers should still be able to do fine.

timoseewho wrote:Is standing in the Breadth of Frost enough to gain its benefits and is there a limit to how many players can benefit from it? Thanks.

You just need to stand on it to reset superheated, and the only "limit" is to not spawn a geyser.
Its 10players in 25man, so we have 3 camps with 7= 21, with 3 cloudburst and a tank not in it.
In 10man its 4? players i think, so 3camps with 3 = 9, with 1 cloudburst, and the tank can even stand in it if you want.
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Re: [10H] Ragnaros

Postby fafhrd » Thu Aug 18, 2011 10:32 am

Wow, thanks for the info Treckkie :D

We tried it for the first time, and while Sons with random spawns are annoying they still seem fairly simple on 10 so long as you sort out who's going where on vent quickly each spawn. We are failing hard to Molten Elementals in P2 though, and debating whether to keep trying to AoE them down (we only have one of the good mobile burst aoe classes), or try to spread out and single-target them down like you did on 25.
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Re: [10H] Ragnaros

Postby Treck » Thu Aug 18, 2011 10:45 am

I havnt personally tried it, but i do think in 10man its prolly easier to be taking them one by one, or atleast some sort of combination, like you stack them then start aoeing, then spread and kill them off one by one, they should be "low" at that point allready.
The reason were still not doing this in 25man is mainly since theres less room in 25man per person, but were also lazy and our strat works for us.
You need less dps to bring him down to 40% in the same time as in 25man (per person), so i guess you can make it with 3 waves still (thats the "normal" ammount of waves in 25man if your aoeing, were taking 4 with stopping dps, so in a week or 2 can prolly do 3 waves aswell).
Paragon mentioned something that they had to "revise" their strat slightly when going from 10man to 25man, and i think thats what they ment, changing p2 slightly.
It IS more healingintensive like i said before tho, having a resto druid really helps out here.
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Re: [10H] Ragnaros

Postby timoseewho » Thu Aug 18, 2011 2:49 pm

Thanks again, last questions, I hope:), does anything special happen during the transition from P3 to P4? And do tanks do anything special in P4 besides dragging Ragnaros in the Entrapping Roots and standing in the Breadth of Frosts? And when do you know is the time to reset Superheated? How's the healing in P4 compared to other main phases (assuming people stand in the breadths)? Thanks! And best of luck with your 25!
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Re: [10H] Ragnaros

Postby Treck » Thu Aug 18, 2011 5:19 pm

Thats a lot more than one question :P

timoseewho wrote:does anything special happen during the transition from P3 to P4? And do tanks do anything special in P4 besides dragging Ragnaros in the Entrapping Roots and standing in the Breadth of Frosts? And when do you know is the time to reset Superheated? How's the healing in P4 compared to other main phases (assuming people stand in the breadths)?

Well, you got the "basics" right.
He drops down at 10% (or the phase starts at 10.6% but sometimes he takes time to go down), some waiting, then meteors gets frozen, and then he tries to jump up from lava again, taking some time, THEN the phase starts. Easier to just watch a video of it, i would assume its the same in 10man. ^^

One tank tanks him, the other one stands in the breath and waits.
We try to arrange a swap every 10-15debuffs.
Theres usually no real worry taking a few more, but you dont really wanna be tanking with 20debuffs.
20 debuffs while running in and resetting superheated is fine, but Raggy does hit for quite some.
He hits for about the same as in the other phases, usually isnt much of an issue since he gets stunned from time to time aswell.
Might be a bit different in 10man, but i usually dont find myself running out of CDs unless something goes very wrong.

The roots are pretty easy to handle unless they are completely covered with dreadflame.
As soon as the NPC starts casting roots (should be announced on your bossmod), we just assign that the current OT starts running for the trap, and he will be the one taunting it into the trap (he should want to have just reset superheated before he starts running.
In the beginning roots will be casted a bit before the empower, a bit later on they come pretty close together, so be ready to bail.
A warrior is awesome here with interveene to cloudbursted people, or using leap.

Otherwise, just focus on surviving, dont cause a geyser when you run in and reset, and have good comunication with your OT about the traps.
If a trap is in a very bad position, it does work to bounce the boss between the tanks untill he looses his buff.
Also, should you decide to use a druid with cloudburst, he can go bearform and taunt the boss to run into a trap if theres to much dreadflame, dont know how viable it is in 10man tho as you only have one with Deluge since a mage is really good at handling the dreadflames.

timoseewho wrote:Thanks! And best of luck with your 25!

You should have tuned in to our stream for our nice and clean oneshot for todays raid ^^
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Re: [10H] Ragnaros

Postby timoseewho » Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:04 am

Awesome and congrats! I kinda just found out you are in <Method> and I'm glad since I was rooting for you guys haha. If my guild had any hopes and dreams, it was definitely crushed tonight, on this guy. We can get through P1 and 1.5 but just totally stumped on in P2, right after the first set of Molten Elementals. We did the strategy where we all stacked on one side, waited until 2-3 seconds on the timer, then started running across and stopped a good 25 yards away from the 'balls'. We stayed stacked until the AoE pulse (using raid CD's), then spread out, AoE'ed them, and single target'ed the ones on healers first, then splat. We ran 2-healers with a holy Paladin and a restoration Shaman and the Shaman seemed to be running into mana problems and was just saying how his class wasn't made out for this fight, yada yada. We pretty much 2-healed for a good 10 attempts and really just didn't think it was doable and had our Priest go holy. My logs are at http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/7iu4 ... boss=52409 and I don't expect anyone to go through my logs and tell me what's wrong hehe (but if you happen to play a holy Paladin or restoration Shaman and have any opinions about their heals, let me know please:), but, from your experience, do you think a Shaman healer is really that underpowered here? Thanks again.
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Re: [10H] Ragnaros

Postby Treck » Fri Aug 19, 2011 5:32 am

Just looking at the logs, seems the tank dps goes down to pretty much 0 when you swap tanks?
While dps isnt that essential in p1, if you can do it with one trap less its not bad, also it shouldnt be needed to stop dps really.

I cant see much from the logs tbh.
Seems you had like one/two try with a 2nd spawn of add, the rest was p1/intermission wipes, or only one wave.
So it depends on what your wiping on really.

Are you killing the molten elementals before they reach you?
And if not, do you spread out enough so that once they start hitting you, they dont buff eachother?
Like i said before, its very healing intensive if your gonna have them hitting you a bit, since people are always going to be low after the explosions.
A shaman "should" be somewhat ok since your still gathered up (their strong side) from time to time, but they are still a bit behind.
Paladin is strong, should try to use his guardian for the heavy aoe phase, if he isnt allready (just to get past it a few times).
And when the adds are one by one, they can be slowed/stunned etc to reduce dmg intake on the raid.
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Re: [10H] Ragnaros

Postby timoseewho » Fri Aug 19, 2011 7:17 am

Treck wrote:Just looking at the logs, seems the tank dps goes down to pretty much 0 when you swap tanks?
While dps isnt that essential in p1, if you can do it with one trap less its not bad, also it shouldnt be needed to stop dps really.

Yeh, that was pretty ongoing in P1 until we 3-healed to try to get further and learn the phases, knowing that other phases would probably be really hard without that DPS. Besides Ragnaros hitting harder, is there any change to tanking on heroic? I'm kind of wondering if we as a group are even geared for this guy, the tanks hover around 378-380 ilvl and the rest around 378.

Treck wrote:I cant see much from the logs tbh.
Seems you had like one/two try with a 2nd spawn of add, the rest was p1/intermission wipes, or only one wave.
So it depends on what your wiping on really.

It was only after we 3-healed did we consistently get to P2:(.

Treck wrote:Are you killing the molten elementals before they reach you?

No we aren't, we start AoE'ing as soon as they are target-able but we get them down to around 50% or a little higher then attempt to single target them down.

Treck wrote:And if not, do you spread out enough so that once they start hitting you, they dont buff eachother?

To be honest, this here might be a problem, we did spread, but do you know the distance we have to spread by? Some of us were at least 10 yards of each other.

Treck wrote:Like i said before, its very healing intensive if your gonna have them hitting you a bit, since people are always going to be low after the explosions.
A shaman "should" be somewhat ok since your still gathered up (their strong side) from time to time, but they are still a bit behind.
Paladin is strong, should try to use his guardian for the heavy aoe phase, if he isnt allready (just to get past it a few times).
And when the adds are one by one, they can be slowed/stunned etc to reduce dmg intake on the raid.

I'm just so sick and tired of my Shaman complaining about how bad his class/spec is (and not just this fight) and how good a healing Druid is. Is this the general consensus (Shamans BLOW and Druids OP)? Heh.
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Re: [10H] Ragnaros

Postby Treck » Fri Aug 19, 2011 8:46 am

timoseewho wrote:Yeh, that was pretty ongoing in P1 until we 3-healed to try to get further and learn the phases, knowing that other phases would probably be really hard without that DPS. Besides Ragnaros hitting harder, is there any change to tanking on heroic? I'm kind of wondering if we as a group are even geared for this guy, the tanks hover around 378-380 ilvl and the rest around 378.

The tanks gear just doesnt matter much, you shouldnt worry about it.
And the dps doesnt seem to be as tough as in 25man, healing is intensive tho.
You are prolly slightly on the lower edge of gear for this fight, its still doable, setbonuses does the most differance tho.

timoseewho wrote:It was only after we 3-healed did we consistently get to P2:(.

You should really be able to reach p2 with 2 healers, it should be the p2 that requires more healing.

timoseewho wrote:To be honest, this here might be a problem, we did spread, but do you know the distance we have to spread by? Some of us were at least 10 yards of each other.

Its 6yards between each mob, doesnt matter how far you are from another player, its about the adds.
Its pretty easy spreading out, and you can easily see the buffs on the adds, if they have one buff, that means one is to close, it however "only" increases their dmg by 25%, so its still "healable" with a buff or 2, its not like it will oneshot someone (altho try to avoid it)

timoseewho wrote:I'm just so sick and tired of my Shaman complaining about how bad his class/spec is (and not just this fight) and how good a healing Druid is. Is this the general consensus (Shamans BLOW and Druids OP)? Heh.

Theres obviously a few problems with the healingclasses, shamans have their moments tho, never really able to outshine a druid but still.
Have you tried using the paladin and a priest to 2man heal?
I really dont think you should have to 3man heal, if you can use 2 other healers just to get further, you atleast know that its a problem with having the shaman.
If 2healing really still wont work, go 3man heal to get further, but that also means you have less dps to kill the elementals.
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Re: [10H] Ragnaros

Postby Malthrax » Fri Aug 19, 2011 9:33 am

timoseewho wrote: Is this the general consensus (Shamans BLOW and Druids OP)? Heh.


Druids in general need to be (repeatedly) beaten into the dirt with a cyanide-dipped, spiked nerf-bat. Won't happen tho, for the same reason you'll never see a Frost nerf for mages.
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Re: [10H] Ragnaros

Postby Sundance » Sat Aug 20, 2011 3:33 am

Cheers, Treckie for the replies. I´m sure they´ll be of great help when we hit 6/7, tommorow.
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Re: [10H] Ragnaros

Postby timoseewho » Fri Aug 26, 2011 10:03 am

Hello, I just wanted some clarification about Breadth of Frosts and Cloudbursts before we finally get there and wipe immediately hehe. Is it possible for the whole raid to reset their Superheated debuff (as long as we have 3 groups of 3 each standing at a corner forming a triangle, with one group standing on the current tank)? Or is it something that requires a rotation, like group 1 goes in, reset, then group 2 goes in, etc.? And about the Cloudbursts, is there only one per P4 (and does it last until death)? If not, is it wise to have multiple people on the Dreadflame removal duty? Should we give the tanks Deluge too since they can clear out the Entrapping Roots of Dreadflame to prepare for the taunt? Lastly, does Deluge grant Superheated immunity? Thanks!
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