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Basic questions about kiting Nef adds in p3 (10N)

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Basic questions about kiting Nef adds in p3 (10N)

Postby econ21 » Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:43 am

Can anyone give me some tips on kiting the adds in Nefarian phase 3 (10 normal version)? I've successfully done it twice before, but have since spent two raids wiping on Nefarian. A basic problem I have is not being able to get them inactive, allowing their stacks to fall off. I have a few specific but rather related questions:

(1) What I have been doing is continually backpedalling around the outer circle, with Nefarian in the middle. One simple question is whether this is a viable strategy in principle? I've read some information saying that it can work (and it did seem to for me, twice at least).

(2) Some in my guild say the damage will be too great - they want more kiting, less tanking. Partly, they think empowering strikes mean the adds become stronger if they hit someone - however, my reading seems to suggest it happens over time regardless of whether they hit anyone. My impression is that I can take the damage from being in melee with them provided I can get them deactivated and avoid standing in the fire. So one specific question is should I be in melee with them or should I be kiting like on Rotface's ooze/Throne of Tides flesh beasts and always keeping them at range? They seem to move too fast for me to keep them at range to be honest.

(3) A related question is regarding backpedalling. That slows me down, but I am reluctant to turn my back to them and lose all avoidance. Should I be backpedalling or turning/running?

(4) In DBM there is a verbal countdown 5-4-3-2-1 to the fire coming that re-energises the adds. Will constant backpedalling be enough to avoid the fire hitting them? Or do I need to do something else in response to the countdown? For example, I've read some advice that says backpedalling is too slow and I need to strafe.

(5) Also, would constant backpedalling cause the room to fill up with fire too soon? Again, some advice says don't move until the countdown (or the 2-1 or even zero part of the countdown).

(6) When should I use the holy wrath stun? A few moments after the countdown has ended? I don't want them frozen when they need to move to avoid the fire, but am having trouble timing it.

(7) One problem I have is that the adds in P1 tend to be left scattered in the centre under where Nef with be tanked in p3. This means they activate at different times and I spend time flailing around picking the remainder up. How serious is this? Should I be firm about the dps getting them in one location in p1 or should I be able to work around it?

(8) And if the adds are left scattered in p1, one guide said it was important to get them together in the fire at the start, so they have the same energy level, is that right?

Thanks for any advice!I feel this should be easy given the nerfs and my gear, if I just knew what I was supposed to be doing.
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Re: Basic questions about kiting Nef adds in p3 (10N)

Postby Herrbjorn » Wed Aug 10, 2011 8:11 am

The 25 Nefarian Add Kiting thread has answers to your questions, and a video tutorial here. Kiting follows the same method in either format.
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Re: Basic questions about kiting Nef adds in p3 (10N)

Postby Belloc » Wed Aug 10, 2011 9:24 am

Constant backpeddling can result in you filling the room up with fire. You basically want to kite as little as possible. Keep the adds just out of reach of the fire. You want to start moving the adds as soon as Nef casts his fireball at them. If that doesn't end up working for you, start moving them when there is 1 second left on the timer.

You'll want to strafe instead of backpeddling. Let the adds hit your side, not your front or back. This will move the adds out of the way quicker, preventing them from standing where the fire lands.

You're not actually kiting the adds -- you are tanking them. You are going to be getting meleed from start to finish and there is nothing that you should do to stop it. As long as the adds are dying, the damage is healable. If your healers end up having trouble (assuming the adds are dying), then that is their problem, not yours. Make sure you have cooldowns available for electrocutes. If you have the Mirror of Broken Images, that should be one of your primary electrocute cooldowns.

The only time you should ever use holy wrath is if it is the only thing that can prevent you from dying. Ideally, you should never have to use it.

Finally, it's alright if the adds are spread out at the start of the phase, but it does help to have them clumped in one area. If you can figure out a way to handle this via CC or DPS tanking in phase 1, go for it. Otherwise, it shouldn't be too big a deal.
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Re: Basic questions about kiting Nef adds in p3 (10N)

Postby Galiks » Wed Aug 10, 2011 9:41 am

Here's a PoV of myself on heroic (sorry for the messy UI at that time), but the same principles can be applied to normal to simplify it. Take smaller steps after shadowblazes as I travel and unnecessary amount of distance most of the time. Our kills after that were much smoother ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRpp3wGuB8U


The mod that counts down is BigWigs and you have to go into the options and "Super Emphasize" Shadowblaze. I believe DBM now announces it as well if an option is turned on. But as said above, just carefully watch Nefarian between 0-2 seconds left on timer since sometimes it may be off by a second (which is critical), figure out how far off the timer is, and then calibrate that for your next moves.

*On normal the timer may be bugged since it was nerfed recently, just watch the floor for a shadowblaze marker and move if you have to. They reset a lot faster on normal so it shouldn't be a problem.
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Re: Basic questions about kiting Nef adds in p3 (10N)

Postby warden » Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:40 pm

The Bigwigs timer will be 0-2 seconds off, as there is a slight rng factor there. The DBM timer will be 0-2 seconds off for the very first shadowblaze in the same way, but will be perfectly correct from the second one on. DBM also has an audible countdown, not just a warning sound(added since this was progression, so many don't know about it) that I've found very helpful.
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Re: Basic questions about kiting Nef adds in p3 (10N)

Postby domipal » Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:15 am

When I kite adds I just would strafe every time the dbm counter starts counting down. Worked pretty well, and I also found that changing my camera angle to look straight down on the adds from above I could see the purple indicator on the ground very well and just started strafing then. As for holy wrath, I used it when I pulled the adds out enough that they won't get hit by the fire immediately after the shadowblaze hits, so after strafing away for a couple seconds, hit them with holy wrath. With the nerf to the add damage, it's really not a big deal if they die spread out. I like to gather them all up and dip them into the fire once so they'll all die at the same time.
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Re: Basic questions about kiting Nef adds in p3 (10N)

Postby econ21 » Thu Aug 11, 2011 4:45 am

Thanks for the excellent advice. I think the p3 tactics are clear to me now - just need the execution.

Looking at the heroic video linked above, I've been wondering about trying to tank the adds in p1 while being the Onxyia tank (a dps could bring them to me and I taunt off). That way the adds would go inactive clustered together and the dps would be at less risk of being gibbed. Is that viable or would I just die?
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Re: Basic questions about kiting Nef adds in p3 (10N)

Postby Epimer » Thu Aug 11, 2011 6:55 am

It's been done before (I remember seeing a video of a DK tank doing it); it can only have been made easier to pull off with the 20% nerfs.
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Re: Basic questions about kiting Nef adds in p3 (10N)

Postby Belloc » Thu Aug 11, 2011 7:32 am

If you're going to tank the adds in phase 1 along with tanking Onyxia, you'll probably want to kill Onyxia without doing any damage to Nefarian (in other words, no electrocutes in phase 1). Also keep in mind that the adds can be kited or DPS tanked (plate DPS do a pretty decent job at this).
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Re: Basic questions about kiting Nef adds in p3 (10N)

Postby Galiks » Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:28 am

warden wrote:The Bigwigs timer will be 0-2 seconds off, as there is a slight rng factor there. The DBM timer will be 0-2 seconds off for the very first shadowblaze in the same way, but will be perfectly correct from the second one on. DBM also has an audible countdown, not just a warning sound(added since this was progression, so many don't know about it) that I've found very helpful.



If you have "Super-Emphasize" the BigWigs Electrocute ability, it also has an audible countdown. I haven't done either on normal post-4.2 so I'm not sure if either mod corrects for the increased time between shadowblazes (at least I believe I saw a change to the period between shadowblazes in the notes) - so be sure to check that if you're doing it on normal!
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Re: Basic questions about kiting Nef adds in p3 (10N)

Postby Hrobertgar » Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:42 am

In normal mode, the adds don't hit that hard. Even pre-nerf we wound up having a rouge kite them into a nice little pile (after we had to re-arrange the raid and lost the plate dps), and he would evasion tank them towards the end with his tree healer following him about.

Plate dps works better, but the rouge was able to survive almost every time.
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Re: Basic questions about kiting Nef adds in p3 (10N)

Postby domipal » Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:14 am

if you have a holy paladin having them stand in the middle with righteous fury up works really well too, just make sure he/she clicks it off before p3 adds come up.
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Re: Basic questions about kiting Nef adds in p3 (10N)

Postby Galiks » Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:04 pm

With the 4.2 nerfs, just have the ony tank also pick up all the adds and burn Onyxia. Hold the adds where you tanked ony or bring closer to the wall. If things get rough tanking Ony + adds then have a DK or mage pop Hungering Cold or Ring of Frost sub-15% or so. Shield wall around 30% as a breath is incoming. Rotate TB trinket/glyphed divine protection for pre-30% breaths. Holy wrath stun the adds as well during a breath to help avoid burst damage. The adds will die about 5 seconds after Onyxia dies. Then just get through P2 and pick up the nicely huddled adds and continue avoiding shadowblazes in a circular fashion around the outside of the room while making the most efficient use of space. This trivializes P1/P2 and makes it easy to begin P3 with them all in one spot. It does rely on the add tank to have a fairly decent idea of what he's doing, though...
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Re: Basic questions about kiting Nef adds in p3 (10N)

Postby Galiks » Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:06 pm

domipal wrote:if you have a holy paladin having them stand in the middle with righteous fury up works really well too, just make sure he/she clicks it off before p3 adds come up.


Have a holy paladin with RF in P1 and then just Righteous Defense continually off of him while spamming Hammer of Righteousness. Also pick up stray adds with Avenger's Shield and Judgment (Improved 2/2). You can turn Ony towards the raid in between breaths if you're having trouble picking them up and drop a consecrate/HoR/Holy Wrath if need be.

Take RF off for p3 (the holy paladin's RF) so they dont get drawn towards the raid.
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