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[25H] Nefarian

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[25H] Nefarian

Postby warden » Tue Apr 12, 2011 7:51 am

I really want to talk about add kiting in P3, but since we didn't have a topic for 25H Nef, I figured I'd make an overall.

So... we're consistantly losing our add tank in the 30% ish range, usually due to the adds not resetting after one or more gets clipped by shadowblaze. For reference, we're using a warrior (Omegal in the logs) add tank, and a pally (Anafille) helping (Ony tank, then rounding up straglers in P3). I'm mainspec ret, but will try to answer any questions.

The strat: Nef in the center, doing turns 90 degrees at a time (I know some prefer 180, we might give this a shot later). Enrage isn't a huge deal, we were 8 healing for learning attempts, but 7 healing atm, with two dedicated to the add tank and two more helping. He gets a CD of his own or an external every crackle. We're pushing 2 crackles in P1 (some of our logs have none in P1--those were just to get to P3 faster and practice). The adds usually are stacked well at the end of P1, and rez more or less together in P3. The add tank uses the entire outside of the room, and usually the first reset is fine. If the Pally tank isn't helping round up any that get loose, they're helping with the raid CD rotation or externals on the warrior or kiting fire.

The problem:
As the shadowblaze timer gets faster, inevitably we don't get a full reset on the adds around or shortly after the 2nd reset time. Sometimes reset 2 happens, reset 3 is almost never clean. We've experimented with fast kites, but run out of space, and slow kites (better fire control, but adds usually get clipped eventually), and using or not using stuns (shockwave/holy wrath).

Thoughts?
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Re: [25H] Nefarian

Postby culhag » Tue Apr 12, 2011 8:06 am

I don't really know what to say. We do the kiting the same way you do and haven't had problems running out of space. Our warrior has successfully kited for 4 or 5 resets (yeah, DPS not so good) The adds do end up getting split after a few but nothing unmanageable.

Make sure you have a good timer for the shadowblazes so you move at the right time. I use BigWigs myself.
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Re: [25H] Nefarian

Postby warden » Tue Apr 12, 2011 8:13 am

We use DBM for it. Coincidentally, the warrior is also one of the lead developers for it, and wrote most of the Nef module himself. Do you guys have any videos posted by chance?
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Re: [25H] Nefarian

Postby Treck » Tue Apr 12, 2011 8:28 am

First of all, id suggest turning nefarian in the same speed the add tank runs around, so not 90 degrees each time you turn, but rather you turn slightly more or less all the time.
Almost everyone got some spell in their "rotation" without cast time making them able to move a few steps every now and then.

Were using 6 healers, mainly since you really dont need much healing in p1 and p3, could get away with some less, but in p2 you really want 2 on each platform, 2 healers are more than capable of taking each platform, and to eliminate this you would have to bring 9 healers, and thats completely useless, a 3rd on any one platform is just not nessesary.

If the adds are not resetting them im afraid your add tank isnt observant enough on the shadowblazes.
It takes a few sec for the thingy to even reach the adds, and theres a purple thingy on the ground where its going to land, so he has a few sec to run away from that before the fire comes there.
You dont have to be constantly moving with the adds, in fact you only want to move when theres a shadowblaze incoming, or a sec or 2 before its inc if you really wanna be on the safe side and be moving when its incoming.
You should try avoiding to stunn them as if your bad with the timing, you might stunn them right before a shadowblaze, making them reset.
If you know how and when to stunn them, you can obviously use it.
Basicly, you move the adds out of the fire, wait for the next blaze, then move, wait, move, wait, move etc...
For safety we use a moonkin to run with the adds (still dpsing nefarian) just in case of a bad shadowblaze, to typhoon them away (last few weeks this has been used like once each p3, just to be on the safe side).
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Re: [25H] Nefarian

Postby Meloree » Tue Apr 12, 2011 8:39 am

warden wrote:I really want to talk about add kiting in P3, but since we didn't have a topic for 25H Nef, I figured I'd make an overall.

So... we're consistantly losing our add tank in the 30% ish range, usually due to the adds not resetting after one or more gets clipped by shadowblaze. For reference, we're using a warrior (Omegal in the logs) add tank, and a pally (Anafille) helping (Ony tank, then rounding up straglers in P3). I'm mainspec ret, but will try to answer any questions.

The problem:
As the shadowblaze timer gets faster, inevitably we don't get a full reset on the adds around or shortly after the 2nd reset time. Sometimes reset 2 happens, reset 3 is almost never clean. We've experimented with fast kites, but run out of space, and slow kites (better fire control, but adds usually get clipped eventually), and using or not using stuns (shockwave/holy wrath).

Thoughts?


A couple of thoughts: I'd suggest using 6 healers. The real healing check is P2, and there should be no reason that 2 healers can't cover a pillar, especially with a little bit of help from hybrids right at transition. Picking up the DPS in P1/P2/P3 will always be helpful.

We turn Nef about 30 degrees at a time, and kite very slowly - essentially attempting to keep the adds just forward of his right shoulder (turning clockwise), with the raid on the same side as the adds. The timing then works out such that by the time the fire gets close to the middle of the room, the raid is out of it. We use 30 degree turns because it allows timing slack for the ranged and healers to move towards Nef's back leg - they can move when there's an instant available, rather than "move right now or die". On late resets, the kite timing works out such that you'll often almost catch up to the old fire before it disappears.

It sounds like your biggest issue is in timing for the kiter. Making sure that he's moving (strafe, not S-key) enough in advance of the fire landing to have the adds clear - and then it's best to stop and tank for a bit, probably just S-keying a little bit to keep the adds just out of fire. The best time to use any stuns is right after the adds have moved out of fire - by the time the stun wears off, it's time to move again, at least on late resets. If the adds are just clipping the fire, your kiter needs to start his move a second or two earlier.

It's entirely possible to get 4 or 5 resets of adds - it's just timing. I'd link our kill video, but it has a very poor perspective on the adds - they're behind the person recording most of the time.

As far as healer split goes, we have 3 healers for the add tank, and 3 healers on Nef tank/raid. The Nef healers should be aware that they have ~30 seconds to top up the raid after electrocute, their priority is the tank - there's no desperate hurry for the raid, because there's zero other damage being done to the raid.
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Re: [25H] Nefarian

Postby Kihra » Tue Apr 12, 2011 9:00 am

I kite the adds in P3 and can share some timing info with you. It's important to understand the timing of the Shadowblazes when dealing with the kite. The adds take 50 seconds to die (losing 2 energy per second). The blazes start off with 30 seconds of separation, and that goes down by 5 seconds each time.

What this means is that kites #1 and #2 use a different timing than all of the subsequent kites. The best way to handle the first two kites is to stand in the fire for about 3-4 seconds. I usually hit them with two Hammers and then move out. This timing will ensure that the adds die right after the second blaze (30 + 25 = 55 seconds for the first kite, 15+10+10+10+10 = 55 seconds for the second kite).

Your goal is to maximize the window of time in which the adds can drop dead. Since the adds can be off by as much as 4-6 energy from one another, you need to give yourself 3-4 seconds of padding so that there is time for all of them to die. You do this by making sure the adds start dying right after a Shadowblaze lands.

The room is actually a 16-sided polygon. For the 10 second blazes, I simply move about the length of one side (maybe ever so slightly more). That's enough to get them out of the fire, and I never catch up to the fire. I strafe to move rather than backing up, and I begin the strafe when the Shadowblaze timer (in DBM) hits the 1 second mark.

I have found that the best way to handle the 10-second-Shadowblaze kites is to simply leave the adds standing in fire when they first get up. Then move out when the *next* Shadowblaze timer hits 1 second. By doing so they'll begin losing energy just after that next blaze hits, and you'll maximize the window of time that they can die safely in. Another reason for just holding them is that you can wait and see if the adds all get up or not. If they don't, you can just leave the adds sitting in fire and wait for all of them to get up.

The timing on the 10-second-blaze kites is such that you really have to either get the adds out of the fire really quickly, or you have to just hold them in the fire until the next blaze is about to hit. Both of those timings will work, but what will not work is trying to leave them in the fire for a few extra seconds like in the first two kites. If you do that, then adds will die both before and after a blaze, and you'll split them.

I can show you a kill video from an add tank healer's perspective, although my raid leader's choice of music leaves something to be desired. Jump to the 5:30 mark. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iO9Xp2KmqLg

You can see that I use a mixture of the two strategies I mentioned above for the third and subsequent kites. This was also a first kill, and I've started just favoring the "hold them in fire" approach rather than the "get them out fast" approach. On the kill I use both approaches a couple of times. You can see that I never catch up to the fire.

I alternate glyphed Divine Protection and Mirror of Broken Images for the Electrocutes, and in addition, the warrior OT (who largely just stands around in that phase) hits me with an Intervene, so the Electrocutes are a total non-issue. I use the following cooldown rotation towards the end of each add kite (just 1 cd per kite): Guardian of Ancient Kings (lasts from 36 energy to death with 4pc bonus), Ardent Defender and Pain Suppression.

I have three healers devoted to me during the kite.

Hope this helps!
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Re: [25H] Nefarian

Postby inthedrops » Tue Apr 12, 2011 9:58 am

Quoting what I think is the most critical advice based on what you're saying...
Treck wrote:First of all, id suggest turning nefarian in the same speed the add tank runs around


Treck wrote:you only want to move when theres a shadowblaze incoming


Treck wrote:You should try avoiding to stunn them
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Re: [25H] Nefarian

Postby Kihra » Tue Apr 12, 2011 10:10 am

inthedrops wrote:Quoting what I think is the most critical advice based on what you're saying...
Treck wrote:First of all, id suggest turning nefarian in the same speed the add tank runs around


Treck wrote:you only want to move when theres a shadowblaze incoming


Treck wrote:You should try avoiding to stunn them


Yeah, strongly agree with all of those statements. We move the dragon in the way Treck suggests and that can be seen here (9:00 mark or so):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1enVA_fyrN8

I'm never in any danger of being tail lashed with that positioning.

I don't ever stun the adds, since there's such a narrow window to do it (has to be right after you move from a blaze), and it just isn't necessary.
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Re: [25H] Nefarian

Postby baleogthefierce » Tue Apr 12, 2011 10:45 am

We just started working on this, and our major headache seems to be deaths in p2 due to cinders being triple stacked on the same platform.

2 healers can handle it if they get triple cinders while the raid is on top of the pillars and topped off, but last night we got a triple cinders on one pillar multiple times during the p1 -> p2 transition. There didn't seem to be enough time to drop the magma stacks before the cinders explode, so the 3 targets were all taking 10+ magma stack damage by the time they got back to the platform, and even with a DPS tranq and Divine Guardian we would still sometimes drop 1 of them if the barrages lined up poorly. Anyone have any awesome tricks for this sort of situation?
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Re: [25H] Nefarian

Postby Bumper » Tue Apr 12, 2011 10:47 am

As for cooldowns on the tank, are the most important ones the crackles or the 30 energy down? Or just make sure we have a cooldown for both. (not using a prot paladin)
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Re: [25H] Nefarian

Postby Kihra » Tue Apr 12, 2011 10:51 am

baleogthefierce wrote:We just started working on this, and our major headache seems to be deaths in p2 due to cinders being triple stacked on the same platform.

2 healers can handle it if they get triple cinders while the raid is on top of the pillars and topped off, but last night we got a triple cinders on one pillar multiple times during the p1 -> p2 transition. There didn't seem to be enough time to drop the magma stacks before the cinders explode, so the 3 targets were all taking 10+ magma stack damage by the time they got back to the platform, and even with a DPS tranq and Divine Guardian we would still sometimes drop 1 of them if the barrages lined up poorly. Anyone have any awesome tricks for this sort of situation?


Spread people with immunities evenly among the platforms. You can basically make it so that it's extremely unlikely that 3 unclearable cinder debuffs will occur on 1 pillar. That means mages and paladins spread out among different pillars, etc.
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Re: [25H] Nefarian

Postby Bumper » Tue Apr 12, 2011 10:54 am

baleogthefierce wrote:We just started working on this, and our major headache seems to be deaths in p2 due to cinders being triple stacked on the same platform.

2 healers can handle it if they get triple cinders while the raid is on top of the pillars and topped off, but last night we got a triple cinders on one pillar multiple times during the p1 -> p2 transition. There didn't seem to be enough time to drop the magma stacks before the cinders explode, so the 3 targets were all taking 10+ magma stack damage by the time they got back to the platform, and even with a DPS tranq and Divine Guardian we would still sometimes drop 1 of them if the barrages lined up poorly. Anyone have any awesome tricks for this sort of situation?


Seems like you might have to spread out your immunity a little bit better. Yes you can still get 3 cinders and no cloak, bubble, block etc. to clear it but that should be very rare. Make sure you have at least a "resist aura" on each and if possible "concentration aura". Also you shouldn't be getting that many stacks, wait until there is 3 seconds left on the debuff and then jump into the lava. Also make sure when coming back from magma that you're not jumping as this gets you stacks faster. Use personal CD's after you start taking damage and is coming up so shadow barrage doesn't kill you.
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Re: [25H] Nefarian

Postby Meloree » Tue Apr 12, 2011 10:55 am

baleogthefierce wrote:We just started working on this, and our major headache seems to be deaths in p2 due to cinders being triple stacked on the same platform.

2 healers can handle it if they get triple cinders while the raid is on top of the pillars and topped off, but last night we got a triple cinders on one pillar multiple times during the p1 -> p2 transition. There didn't seem to be enough time to drop the magma stacks before the cinders explode, so the 3 targets were all taking 10+ magma stack damage by the time they got back to the platform, and even with a DPS tranq and Divine Guardian we would still sometimes drop 1 of them if the barrages lined up poorly. Anyone have any awesome tricks for this sort of situation?


We found the P1->P2 transition to be the hardest part of the fight for us, especially with RNG cinders, so we did a few things to make sure it was stable all the time, despite whatever RNG we might get:
1) We use my raidwall at the transition, about 1s before cinders explode. It gives them some DR on the way back in.
2) Each pillar has a DPS druid (or our feral tank) on it to use a tranq on every pillar at transition. It helps soften the on-platform load so the healers can focus on cinders.
3) Each pillar has at least one hybrid healing spellcaster (SP or Ele or Boomkin) who can spot-heal when there's 2 healers cindered on a pillar, or they're behind on a pillar.
4) Every pillar has some form of fire resist (Paladin aura or shaman healing stream totem)
5) Personal cooldowns should be available for anyone that has them - barkskin, shieldwall - most DPS have something they can soften damage with, it should be available for the transition.

In addition to those things that we do every time on transition, a few more tips:
4) We're not afraid to call for priest hymns if necessary, from our SPriests.
5) Our Ret paladins are pretty aggressive about using WoG if their pillar has low-health people.
6) I'm on the pillar with 9 people instead of 8, and I spam-heal Cinder targets (Flash of Light/WoG with SoI) to help out.

Not all of this is strictly necessary anymore, but it certainly helped with our first kills.

EDIT: I'm aware that doing all of that qualifies as overkill. I tend to prefer guaranteed-stable strats, I hate leaving "screwed over by RNG" on the table if I can help it. Also, I cleaned up a typo.
Last edited by Meloree on Tue Apr 12, 2011 11:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [25H] Nefarian

Postby warden » Tue Apr 12, 2011 11:08 am

A huge thank-you again to everyone contributing to this thread!
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Re: [25H] Nefarian

Postby Meloree » Tue Apr 12, 2011 11:11 am

Kihra wrote:Spread people with immunities evenly among the platforms. You can basically make it so that it's extremely unlikely that 3 unclearable cinder debuffs will occur on 1 pillar. That means mages and paladins spread out among different pillars, etc.


It's whenever people say something like this that I become intensely jealous of raids that have more than two paladins, one rogue, and one mage in them.
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