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[10] Heroic Cho'gall

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[10] Heroic Cho'gall

Postby dukka » Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:31 am

Anyone with any thoughts or experiences to share?

We have to choose either cho'gall or council, leaning towards chogall, so anything would be greatly appreciated :)
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Re: [10] Heroic Cho'gall

Postby 99sitr » Fri Apr 01, 2011 4:47 am

We put a few attempts on H Cho'gall one night, our best attempt was 2 adds down. Our problem was managing DPS around the small adds (fire and shadow) while the big add was up. I also noticed Worship seemed to be on a lot faster CD than in normal mode.

Without seeing P2 I probably can't offer much advice. I think this fight is easier than several others from what we saw and in the limited attempts (30 minutes before raid ended) I think we got him to around 50%.

If he Pacman's a fire add while he has a stack or two of Worship I suggest you lace up your boots and pop a good CD.
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Re: [10] Heroic Cho'gall

Postby superworm » Fri Apr 01, 2011 6:17 pm

From the information I gathered, the warrior Spell Reflect or shaman Glyphed Grounding Totem can deflect all the fire damage, so it would be a variable option if you're having trouble with the fire add.
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Re: [10] Heroic Cho'gall

Postby Belloc » Fri Apr 01, 2011 6:22 pm

superworm wrote:From the information I gathered, the warrior Spell Reflect or shaman Glyphed Grounding Totem can deflect all the fire damage, so it would be a variable option if you're having trouble with the fire add.

I believe this has been fixed.
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Re: [10] Heroic Cho'gall

Postby Brutalus » Sat Apr 02, 2011 2:37 am

It has indeed.
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Re: [10] Heroic Cho'gall

Postby PsiVen » Sun Apr 03, 2011 3:07 pm

We haven't started on this fight yet, but I've been researching how other guilds do it and one of the key tactics I've noted is to bring a caster DPS to 100% Corruption ASAP, let them die at the start of P2 and battlerez them before you blow Heroism. This is almost always a fire mage, but sometimes it's a balance druid. It seems that P2's DPS requirement is tough, but keeping up in P1 is tougher.

Honestly I couldn't tell you which fight would be easier for your guild, but I know we will be killing Ascendant Council before Cho'gall. We'll already be getting shoulder tokens from Al'Akir, and Council looks to have a much shorter learning curve. I'm convinced that most guilds would kill it before Nef and Al'Akir if the rewards were equivalent.
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Re: [10] Heroic Cho'gall

Postby dukka » Sun Apr 03, 2011 3:12 pm

got a little time on him, quite brutal tank damage :)

things to ponder:
elixirs or flask, probably elixirs (mastery + resistance)
interrupting could be better, shamans are gods here with their range on interrupt

not a lot to tell so far really, looking forward to a full evening of pulls

curious to hear about council, maybe that's for another thread though...

we pondered the 100% curruption but it feels a bit like, cheating, guess it's worth playing around with, for now I think we're just "overkilling" the elementals a lot and loosing a lot of dps there, fun fight, brutal on healers and tanks
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Re: [10] Heroic Cho'gall

Postby Belloc » Sun Apr 03, 2011 3:27 pm

Council is a really simple fight up until the last phase. Even then, it's only a tight DPS race).
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Re: [10] Heroic Cho'gall

Postby Karnadas » Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:06 am

Both of those fights are fun on heroic (ascendant council especially so, since I single-tank that fight).


For Ascendant Council, all I can really say is PAY ATTENTION.

For Cho'gall, make sure someone taunts right before Fury of Cho'gall so you don't have to do a "real" tank swap, have your melee come off of the adherent early to burn the fire/shadow guys and keep your eyes peeled. I'd show you my video for heroic Cho'gall, but it was the day that fixates were bugged. We got to the last phase after pulling all the bloods to us, since they weren't coming normally, but on the kill attempt we had decided to ignore them and just plant the dead adherents in the far corners so we didn't aggro the bloods during the last phase. Some people said it was cheating, but like I said, we had gotten to phase 3 after going out of our way to pull the adds to us, so I didn't feel too bad about it.

Now if only Sinestra would like to stop putting orbs on our healers and Wrack on the whelp tank, I'd be very appreciative.
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Re: [10] Heroic Cho'gall

Postby Treck » Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:42 pm

I dont know if i feel its actually that benefitial to run with some dps with 100% corruption.
Are you running into enrage problem? Then "maybe" it could be worth it, but honestly i dont think its worth it.
We obviously do 25man and not 10man, but this goes for both.
Getting 100% corruption is in no way a "cheat", the only fishy thing about it is that you can kinda heal them to some degree, and that shouldnt be possible.

To gain a bit of dps, we dont dps some of the elementals, at all.
If you have to change to dps the elementals, thats dps on the boss your missing out.
If the big 2 adds are not incoming during the shadow aoe, theres really not that much point in dpsing it at all.
a 9stack add aoe wont kill people, it will do like 70% of peoples hp in dmg iirc (raid CDs are not a bad idea)
People will be stacked up, so healing will be easy.
Also a few of the fireelementals can be skipped aswell.
Im the 2nd tank on chogall, im always taking one fireelemental each tank rotation, meaning i got pretty strong CDs for each time, and i also happen to take fireelementals once each 1min 30, meaning 3min CDs are perfect.
(DP(glyphed)+ TB trinket + AD)for the first, (DP(glyphed) + TB trinket + GoAK) for the 2nd, and then repeat.
Meaning pretty much that i can take full stack fireelementals without much problem.
There will obviously be a problem if the MC interrupting isnt done properly.

You can also adapt your dps on the small adds a bit, some dpsers are just plain bad on aoe, so they should most likely not even try if they dont have to.
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Re: [10] Heroic Cho'gall

Postby PsiVen » Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:22 am

Letting off a 9-stack shadow AoE with 2 healers sounds like a recipe for disaster to me... Fire ones seem reasonable though.

How many healers do you bring for Cho'gall 25H?
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Re: [10] Heroic Cho'gall

Postby Treck » Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:30 pm

6healers.

But theres not really much to heal, if any at all, when the 2 adds are not up (besides the tank obviously)
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Re: [10] Heroic Cho'gall

Postby Worldie » Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:40 pm

There's no real reason to eat a 9 stacked aoe if you can at the very least throw a few istant dots (moonkin / sp mainly) and scale it down to 6-7 stacks. Anyway, a 6+ stack AoE ticks (in 25 man at least) for about 30k after resistances and before CDs and ticks... was it 4 times? So suppose 120k damage before any CD spread in like 12 seconds, it's not really something unhealable.
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Re: [10] Heroic Cho'gall

Postby Treck » Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:51 pm

Its 3 ticks.
If it hits for 30k, 3 ticks, that means about 90k hp.
With 9 stacks i think its something like 35-40k per tick, theres 3 ticks the first and last beeing +10sec apart, people will be getting healed between those ticks, meaning that even if all dmg in total is 120k, you will still be alive after it all.
Since everyone should easily be at 100% hp (since theres nothing to take dmg from) everyone might go down low, but yet again, theres still not gonna be any dmg income on the raid for a while.

The reason i suggested it, was cuz people were saying they might have to get people running with 100% corruption.
The only reason id say you wanna do that, is if your having enrage problems, as it adds a bit of other problems to it (its not like you run in and get 100% corruted blood, and have no problems at all)
Also, if you do run with someone with full blood, you pretty much HAVE to kill all shadow elementals, meaning a lot of dps you have to waste on smth you would otherwise not always have to bother about.
You gain some dps somewhere, but you will also loose some dps on other ends.

These days we have no problem with the dps on the boss, we usually push him to 25% before the 5th wave spawns, and now were killing a lot more elementals than before (this is cuz they fixed the spellreflec trick with, when we didnt have to care about the fire elementals whatsoever now we kill 2/3rds of all the fire elementals, just to get by without any unexpected deaths)
(firstkill was a bit after the 5th wave spawned, and tanked them for like 10sec before they despawned)
Tbh we never ran into enrage problem, someone just told us that the enrage was very demanding, so we optimized dps in every corner to get it working good, and once we passed that milestone, we noticed that the enrage really wasnt that much of an issue tbh.
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Re: [10] Heroic Cho'gall

Postby inthedrops » Tue Apr 05, 2011 9:53 pm

I realize this in the 10 man thread and I only have 25 experience. For us, we ran with 5 healers and still have enrage issues. We tweaked a few things with positioning, and started getting TWO mages corrupted, and finally got it down. We were well ahead of enrage so can probably step back by one mage. Also, we kill all elementals except when I'm tanking Cho'gall (which is when adherents are out). So I take the full fire to the face moments.

Getting people corrupted is a royal pain in the rear. I tried to find ways to not have to do it. It really isn't "cheating" at all. In fact, for 25 at least, I think it makes the critical aspects of the fight more difficult. Basically, you have to have dedicated interrupters keeping an eye on them when they get MC'd. And because they're standing in puddles they can be pretty far out of the way from everyone else. All it takes is some bad MC combo's and BAM!, 2 stacks of worship before some ranged gets to it.

When learning this fight, I highly suggest you focus on the absolute basics and REALLY don't worry about DPS until you hit your first enrage. The basics are:

1. Interrupts (most important) and individual raid positioning during MC's.
2. Handling puddle positioning to assist in efficient ooze killing.
3. Raid cooldown rotations.
4. Tank rotations.
5. Keeping tanks alive.
6. Not standing in fire or shadow crashes.

Once the basics are good, then you can start working on:
1. Deciding how many and which Elementals you will DPS (this varies by guild).
2. Figuring out the bare minimum amount of DPS required to kill the Elementals.
3. Figuring out the bare minimum amount of DPS required to kill the Adherents.
4. Further ooze DPS optimizations.
5. Optimizing boss positioning for DPS gains.

THEN!!!! you can maybe consider doing things like dropping a healer for another DPS, or getting some people Corrupted.

That's just my opinion having worked on this fight for a while.
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