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[10] Heroic Conclave of Four Winds - Looking for help

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[10] Heroic Conclave of Four Winds - Looking for help

Postby ccatherine » Wed Mar 16, 2011 8:36 am

Hello everyone!

My guild is currently working on our 5th Heroic for 10-mans this tier which is the first boss in the throne of the four winds. Our raid composition is as follows...

Prot Paladin
Bear Druid

Discipline Priest
Resto Druid
Holy Paladin

Frost DK
Shadow Priest
Demo Lock
Marksmanship Hunter
Frost Mage

I've looked over for a few strats & suggestions around for other 10-mans and as a result have tried to base it for around our raid comp. However, unfortunately we have not been as successful. Our current strat is to place the hunter+mage+ holy priest to start on the wind boss (Rohash), tank druid+resto druid on the ice boss (Nezir) and the prot+holy paladins+frost dk+shadow priest on the nature boss (Anshal). We alternate the healer switches between wind+ice at 50~ energy so they get to reset debuffs and have both of them heal for the ice ultimate. The third healer, paladin never leaves the nature boss to cover whichever tank is present. Both our tanks switch at 75 + 25 (after ultimate) energy, meaning the prot paladins always is on the nature boss to tank him when adds are up but on the ice boss during ultimates and vice versa with the druid. On top of that, we have the frost dk freezing the adds when they spawn at Anshal - after he puts the healing circle down, we move the adds out and AOE them all down as quick as possible (with the dk + lock + spriest) between the gaps of the toxic spores, it is tight but possible. After the adds go down, all 3 dps and the prot paladin switches to Nezir because it's already at 70-80 energy when the adds finally die. So during the ultimates, we have 7 players 1 tank+2 healers+4 dps (1 extra from the hunter on Rohash's platform). Leaving the frost mage to solo tank Rohash during his ultimate.

Initially, we tried using 4 dps starting on the wind boss to break the shield very fast (using a frost dk to kite the adds for the entire fight) but it seemed it wasn't needed and we then drifted to 3 (decided to kill the adds instead of kiting), then 2 eventually to really stretch it - allowing us to have more dps on the nature boss at the start.

It sounds like not a bad idea right? But we can't seem to get any further than this, after one ultimate and the second wave of adds spawn it just seems to fall apart. Is there something that I am missing here or something that I can change to make it work better or is it the players' performance issue here? We of course run into several random wipes, such as people dying during the ice ultimate and people being knocked off the wind platform that it silences us.

I am looking for any suggestions or help that could perhaps make this work better for us and would be greatful if anyone can provide any assistance :)
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Re: [10] Heroic Conclave of Four Winds - Looking for help

Postby Belloc » Wed Mar 16, 2011 8:43 am

Who is dying? Which platform?
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Re: [10] Heroic Conclave of Four Winds - Looking for help

Postby ccatherine » Wed Mar 16, 2011 8:55 am

Sometimes the people on wind platform screw up, but im sure thats human error. Other times when people die, its usually during or not long after the first ultimates. The Frost mage sometimes gets killed here and some people who are on the ice platform (the hunter + dk + holy/shadow priests + druid + lock) die during the ultimate or right after it's finished and an ice patch spawns afterwards. But there were some attempts where we got through this and everyone returned on their original platforms and tanks were able to swap back at ~25 energy after the first ultimate - then it just goes to poop from everyone :(

My concern is, aside from the human errors is the strat incorrect or is there a better way to do this? etc.
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Re: [10] Heroic Conclave of Four Winds - Looking for help

Postby PsiVen » Wed Mar 16, 2011 11:03 am

The only thing we can tell you about when it "goes to poop from everyone" is "play better." Need more specific details about who's screwing up what!

We're about in the same place, but feeling quite close to a kill. What usually happens for us is one of the healers dies at the end of Nezir's ultimate, or the Storm Shield kills someone (we use 2 dps on it). If we get that cleanly, it's either the new Anshal tank learning how do to it, or a healer swap fail involving ice patches.

We narrowed down most of our sleet-storm deaths to bad transitions (someone didn't swap in time), the Permafrost Nezir casts during the transition, and ice patches dropped on the runway. Now we try to avoid letting patches drop there, and the Nezir tank calls out the swap immediately after a Permafrost once the adds are dead (which should happen before the 2nd Toxic Spores, so we're getting in position at 70 energy). Also, we've experimented and found that Sleet Storm is much more survivable if all 3 healers are present; the Anshal healer spams from the edge, so she gets thrown back immediately at the end.
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Re: [10] Heroic Conclave of Four Winds - Looking for help

Postby ccatherine » Wed Mar 16, 2011 11:15 am

Hmmm ok, three healers huh? thats interesting! I'll definately take a look at that, the healer was telling me couldn't run back in time to get the tank at Anshal after the ultimate, but I guess he could spam from the edge.

Do you think our current strat can be better or is it fine the way it is, in a sense that any changes that may be beneficial to us (that we're not already doing) that could help us?

I can definately say that a lot of the wipes are human error but probably also need to look at what we can do to prevent it or have minimal chances of it occuring, like you said about the ice patches dropped on runway.
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Re: [10] Heroic Conclave of Four Winds - Looking for help

Postby Belloc » Wed Mar 16, 2011 11:16 am

As far as frost patch deaths go... make sure to be spreading out as the ultimate is ending (a second or 3 before). No one should stack. If a frost patch spawns under you, you use a healthstone.
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Re: [10] Heroic Conclave of Four Winds - Looking for help

Postby Técaro » Sat Mar 19, 2011 7:40 am

If the tank who's supposed to handle post-ulti Anshal is topped off and has shieldwall or equivalent+maybe some other small cd he'll be completely fine. While Anshal swings for around 40k through shieldwall you'll only take 4-5 hits, typically 3 before your healer arrives.
We had a slightly different setup for the wind platform where we had a mage and ret pala. The mage and ret pala (with engi) would alternate staying on the platform and bubble/block. Our disc priest on the platform would PWB one shield, then PS someone on the next and spam binding heal on the other.
On the nature platform we had 3 dps, tank and healer. We killed the adds using a trick I stole from a vid. If you stun the adds when they're supposed to cast toxic spores, the cast gets cancelled. The vid used hungering cold to stun, we managed with glyphed holy wrath and shockwave. I think hungering cold is the easier option. Your tank can back off just incase, if they do get toxic spores off you can easily kite them for the duration.

When ultis were close our disc priest would head over slightly early to make sure the tank heading to Anshal from Nezir was topped. The Nezir healer would always stay for the ulti. We bunched up for the ulti with healing rain+efflorescence and then spread with 2-3s left so not everyone got icepatched. The healer who's supposed to be with the tank now on the Anshal platform heads over asap, but if you get delayed by frost patches it shouldn't even be that big a problem.

So the general idea was: stun adds, nuke down before next toxic spores, use cds appropriately on the wind platform and get bored on the frost one. Leading up to the ulti, disc priest would come help top off the tank heading to the nature platform. For Sleet storm everyone bar the Anshal tank and one Rohash dps would be on Nezir's platform. After the ulti everyone heads back appropriately. Rinse and repeat.

Small note: we found to have a bit of an excess in Anshal DPS so that platform's dps would typically linger a good 15-20s to burn Nezir down a bit more. Your mileage may vary of course, but it helps.
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Re: [10] Heroic Conclave of Four Winds - Looking for help

Postby ccatherine » Sat Mar 19, 2011 7:56 am

Thanks for the advice Tecaro!
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Re: [10] Heroic Conclave of Four Winds - Looking for help

Postby Hrobertgar » Mon Mar 21, 2011 10:34 am

Are you using any raid CDs for frost ultimate?

I haven't done heroic yet, but when I heal it on normal, I always use Aura Mastery when I arrive for a frost ultimate. I also try to encourage the pairing of tank/heals such that there is always someone capable of frost resistance on the frost platform. If I am tanking it, then I try to save Divine Gaurdian for frost ultimte as well.

I'm just curious as you mentioned CDs on the wind platform, but only discussed AOE healing on frost.
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Re: [10] Heroic Conclave of Four Winds - Looking for help

Postby Técaro » Mon Mar 21, 2011 3:45 pm

I use Divine Sac when I'm there, if we have a holy pala he'll AM but we had disc/shaman/druid healing on our kill. All the ranged bunches up on effloresence+healing rain with poh's thrown in though, that does a lot.
I also typically sacced the healer who's been on the Frost platform and has 7-8 stacks, mostly because I can.
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Re: [10] Heroic Conclave of Four Winds - Looking for help

Postby Arianne » Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:52 pm

Since you have a druid make sure to use stampeding roar to get away after the frost ultimate before a patch drops on the raid.
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Re: [10] Heroic Conclave of Four Winds - Looking for help

Postby balada » Tue Mar 22, 2011 4:30 am

- I feel it is a waste to put your holy pala healer on Anshal. You want his resist aura and AM at Nezir as often as possible. Also pala healer can remove his frost stacks if something goes wrong.
- As it has been already written, you need at least 2 healers at Nezir during the ultimate. Three are the best but Anshal's tank is sometimes a close call. We send the Anshal healer to Nezir's second ultimate, because first and third are covered by raidwide cooldowns.
- We sometimes got people killed during the tank swaps. Even with a good timing Anshal or Nezir would just turn on a healer or dps and chase them down. Taunting the boss when leaving platforms helped a lot.
- We use pala tank (me) and a warrior tank on this encounter. I ended up tanking Nezir without a tank swap till Nezir's 70 energy before the third ultimate. It was just way easier to heal a pala tank at Nezir: Seal of Insight, WoG, resist aura, rotating Divine Protection and Mirror of Broken Images, bubble-out the frost stacks in the middle.

Hope this helps a bit,
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Re: [10] Heroic Conclave of Four Winds - Looking for help

Postby PsiVen » Tue Mar 22, 2011 5:59 am

Keep in mind that a paladin tank left alone at Anshal can simply BoP himself at the end of Zephyr and take no damage. If you want to get really cute you can let him run to you and wait a few seconds before blowing it, guaranteeing that he never hits you at all before your healer arrives -- and they don't need to hurry.

A couple of things we tweaked for our kill (which was still messy, we continue to wipe on mistakes):

- Extra healer transition. Normally if you leave the same healer on Anshal the whole fight, they will have a ton of mana. Since we had shuffled healing duties between platform assignments already, we were comfortable having our Anshal healer stay on Nezir's platform after the second ultimate and take a shift there. Note that this doesn't change who's healing Storm Shield, that stays consistent.

- Don't get greedy and send your floating Rohash DPS to burn Anshal at the end. It will make it easier to line up the Gathering Strength timers, but Rohash is still the most dangerous platform and if something goes wrong, one person cannot break Storm Shield and nobody else can get there in time to help.

- Time the Anshal/Nezir tank swaps after the adds are dead, before 86 energy, and while the Nezir tank is topped off. Permafrost and frost patches are too unpredictable to simply wait for them to happen before you move.

- This sounds obvious, but make sure that you always have a resist aura actually present at Nezir during the ultimate...

We tried the Hungering Cold trick, and couldn't get it to work reliably. We also tried a strategy we saw in a video, where a healer sat in the middle of a Ring of Frost and ranged DPS would simply kite the adds starting AoE as the final add got frozen; that worked great some of the time, but even with an RF holy paladin not healing the tank until Nurture (which you can survive, as long as you don't get unlucky avoidance) the healing threat just wasn't consistent and I would constantly get 1-3 adds on me doing nothing. That strategy also prevented us until last night from realizing that frost mages are excellent for Rohash's shield.

What did work was using a DK with AMS popped before spores, allowing him to snare them all reliably and only move once as a precaution. Since we had to shuffle tank specs to do this, and we didn't realize that AMS worked this way at the time, I think a reliable strategy for a Blood DK / Prot Paladin combo would be to Holy Wrath / AMS and kite through a frost trap. The problem with this is that you have to be quick if the trap is your only snare, but AMS and bubble should make it pretty forgiving.
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Re: [10] Heroic Conclave of Four Winds - Looking for help

Postby 2Cute2BeStr8 » Sun May 15, 2011 9:54 pm

OKAY SERIOUSLY. I tried this fight tonight for the first time in a bit, and I personally don't like using an add kiter because it takes away from the DPS imo, and i mean they can just make one mistake and BAM.

So I tried to use the stun before spores thing? Should be easy, have me, a shadowfury lock, and a fire mage? Seriously... when the hell do you do the stun?

I have a timer and that thing is way off. Like me and the warlock both couldn't get it, because sometimes we'd follow timer and sometimes not? We'd actually chain stun them, from the end of the timer like when there was between 0.5-1 second remaining, I would holy wrath and then he'd shadowfury and they still would pop spores?

Like I felt stupid for not just using the kiting method but it seems a lot easier doing the stun but without a reliable timer there is just no way!.. I tried maybe going off of the bosses energy? Like ring of frost/hungering cold worked, because we would just keep em in there till the cast would start ( because it yells out toxic spores), and then we'd break em but then if we didn't kill before next set we would die because couldn't get the stun stuff right.

Everything else is fine.
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Re: [10] Heroic Conclave of Four Winds - Looking for help

Postby PsiVen » Sun May 15, 2011 10:07 pm

I think you can go by boss energy, but you'll need to memorize it for each cycle as it gets later each time. We've never done it reliably. Kiting doesn't take away from the DPS, you just have to get a reliable snare up and the tank can take aggro from there.
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