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[25H] Halfus

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Re: [25H] Halfus wtf

Postby PsiVen » Wed Mar 16, 2011 12:03 pm

Do you parse your kills? A likely cause of tank death related to "gear problems" is failure to dodge fireballs. Unless your DK or his healers are really just hogshit geared with no epics at all, it's that or the MS stacks killing him, not being undergeared. BoP sooner and switch faster would be my advice. Swap Halfus between every tank who doesn't have two drakes on them, using cooldowns when they taunt, BoPs when they get more than a few stacks, and more cooldowns if they're not topped off when Halfus is taunted away.

If you had two drakes on a bear, that must have been a serious drain on healers' attention that caused deaths elsewhere even if you didn't see him dying. The only way to stack two drakes would be a blockcapped paladin, but I didn't think you were the one tanking them? If you have whelps, you shouldn't be wearing a blockcap set anyway since much of their damage is fire.

I would think, if you 4 paladins, you could make it easier:

DK1: Halfus (your weak gear tank)
DK2: Whelps
Bear: Nether
Pal: Storm+Time

5 stacks on DK1 -> BoP
5 stacks on DK1 -> DK2 taunt
5 stacks on DK2 -> BoP
stacks expire on DK1 -> DK1 taunt
5 stacks on DK1 -> Bear taunt (Nether is dead by now, right?)
5 stacks on Bear -> BoP
stacks expire on DK1 -> DK1 taunt
5 stacks on DK1 -> Pal taunt (Storm is dead, right?), Bear taunts Time
5 stacks on Pal -> DS
stacks expire on DK1 -> DK1 taunt
5 stacks on DK1 -> DK2 taunt
stacks expire on DK1 -> DK1 taunt
5 stacks on DK1 -> Bear taunt (if you killed whelps, DK2 taunts Time here)
stacks expire on DK1 -> DK1 taunt
5 stacks on DK1 -> Pal taunt
etc.
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Re: [25H] Halfus wtf

Postby fuzzygeek » Wed Mar 16, 2011 12:17 pm

PsiVen wrote:If you have whelps, you shouldn't be wearing a blockcap set anyway since much of their damage is fire


I don't think this is the case. Parsed logs for damage done by whelps list melee damage only, at about 5.5k blocked.

Talking to healers we could heal tanks and the raid fine for two or three minutes, at which point they started running OOM and bad things happened. Our entire problem boils down to not removing major sources of damage quickly enough; changing the initial focus from whelps to a drake -- and getting that drake down within the first minute -- should be key.
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Re: [25H] Halfus wtf

Postby Belloc » Wed Mar 16, 2011 3:41 pm

Whelps do nothing but melee swing, which is always blockable.
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Re: [25H] Halfus wtf

Postby Arianne » Wed Mar 16, 2011 4:19 pm

Time for some WoL analysis.

March 10th attempts:
#1 Morbid dies due to healers not healing him. This compounded by Solcow pulling aggro back from Morbid after tank swap should have occurred, Solcow having 11 stacks of MS, early deaths due to standing in fireballs, and multiple shadow novas going off. Praetora = Fallout (bacon = Fallout). Dreamliner = raid. Hennessyie = Solcow (never swaps). Hipopo = raid +Shadowyn. Klute = Solcow (bacon Solcow), swaps late to Morbid. Curega = Shadowyn (bacon = Shadowyn). Hillarie = Shadowyn. DPS = full out AoE.

#2 Fallout dies early because he's tanking whelps + Storm + Time (WTF?). Whelps run around killing everyone. Failed whelp pickup I'm guessing or overaggro by Fallout.

#3 Morbid dies due to healers not healing him. Takes 4 hits with only AoE heals (everyone is still healing Solcow). Praetora = Fallout (bacon = Fallout). Dreamliner = raid. Hennessyie = Solcow (never swaps). Hipopo = raid +Shadowyn. Klute = Solcow (bacon Solcow) (never swaps). Curega = Shadowyn (bacon = Shadowyn).
Hillarie = Shadowyn.

#4 Solcow dies early because Klute DC.

#5 Solcow dies due to tank swap fail (12 MS stacks). Mage pulls aggro on Storm Rider. Shadowyn dies to synced hits from two drakes (one non-blocked) on the first hit after Nether Scion is released. Praetora = Solcow (bacon = Fallout). Dreamliner = raid. Hennessyie = Fallout. Hipopo = raid +Shadowyn. Klute = Solcow (bacon Solcow). Curega = Shadowyn (bacon = Shadowyn). Hillarie = Shadowyn.

#6 Morbid dies to healers not healing him (again) and started out tanking with low health because all of the beacons are on Solcow. Then Solcow dies due to tank swap failure (12 MS stacks). Then Morbid dies again presumably because the healers are OOM and only casting cheap heals on him. Storm Rider = Shadowyn. Time Warden = Fallout. On Morbid's first death Shadowyn pulls aggro from Fallout on the Time Warden and Fallout never takes it back and never seems to grab aggro on anything else, though he does taunt Halfus once (it still stays on Solcow and kills Solcow, so presumably Solcow also taunted it (or it was taunt immune)).

#7 oops

#8 Nether Scion = Shadowyn. Storm Rider = Morbid. Time Warden = Fallout. Halfus = Solcow. Everything here is running around crazy - losing lots of people to missed aggro. Morbid has a single healer on him who can't keep up with the damage he takes (Praetora). Klute seems to not know who he's healing. Starts with beacon on Solcow and healing Shadowyn, then raid heals some, then heals Morbid some, then heals Solcow some. Curega = Shadowyn (bacon Fallout - finally some beacon on someone appropriate!). Hennessyie = Fallout. Hillarie = Solcow.

#9 Curega = Shadowyn (bacon Fallout). Hennessyie = Fallout. Hillarie = Solcow. Klute still seems to not really know who he's healing. Bacon on Solcow, heals Solcow to start, then Morbid and alternates. Praetora = Morbid. Hipopo = Shadowyn. Nether Scion = Shadowyn. Storm Rider = Morbid. Time Warden = Fallout. Lose 1 person to fireball barrage and 3 people to scorching breath (including a healer), then a tank (because you lost a healer to the scorching breath). DPS takes 1:15 to kill the first drake. As far as I can tell here, Fallout got RNG'd down (3 hits for 65k+ in a row) and didn't use a CD in time (he had bone shield, dancing rune weapon, death pact, and vampiric blood available, as well as calling for a PS/GS/HoS). Storm Rider is dead at this point. Time Warden -> Shadowyn. Halfus -> Morbid. Solcow -> nothing (5 stacks MS). Nether Scion -> Shadowyn. Things seem to stabilize, then you lose your raid healer (Hipopo) to standing in fireballs (bad, but first time). At this point you don't have enough raid healers left, which leads to losing a tank healer to scorching breath followed by raid collapse (not sure why you didn't BR Hillarie or Hennessyie or Hipopo or Fallout after they died here, though that would have still left you down several DPSers).

#10 Curega = Shadowyn (bacon Fallout). Hennessyie = Morbid. Hillarie = Solcow. Klute appears to be DC'd and doesn't do anything much or he's spending way too much time putting up cooldowns and not healing (he literally gets off only 3 heals in 30s and his beacon goes off once on Morbid). Praetora = Solcow. Time Warden = Solcow. Nether Scion = Solcow. Halfus = Morbid or Fallout. Whelps = Shadowyn. Storm Rider = Shadowyn. This attempt seems like it ends solely due to Klute's ineffectiveness, which results in Morbid's early death. Tanks are still swapping at 8+ stacks of MS though and there's no HoP on the Halfus tank and you have Fallout sitting around sucking his thumb with 2 beacons on him while Solcow tries to tank two drakes and gets pummeled.

#11 Solcow dies cuz he's tanking 2 drakes (surprise!). Curega = Shadowyn (beacon Fallout). Hennessyie = Morbid. Hillarie = Solcow. Klute = Solcow (beacon Morbid). Klute actually gets some heals off here, but Solcow dies so fast that his DL doesn't register AND he still dies from the HoS he had up on Solcow when Solcow died. Praetora = Solcow (beacon Fallout). Time Warden = Solcow. Nether Scion = Solcow. Halfus = Morbid or Fallout. Whelps = Shadowyn. Storm Rider = Shadowyn.

#12 Curega = Shadowyn (bacon Fallout). Hennessyie = Morbid. Hillarie = Solcow. Klute = Solcow (beacon Fallout). Praetora = Solcow (beacon Fallout). Time Warden = Solcow. Nether Scion = Solcow. Halfus = Morbid or Fallout. Whelps = Shadowyn. Storm Rider = Shadowyn. Shadowyn takes multiple unblocked hits from Storm Rider and dies.

#13 Curega = Shadowyn (bacon Fallout). Hennessyie = Morbid. Hillarie = Shadowyn. Once again Klute is ineffectual. No heals before people start dying. Praetora = Solcow (beacon Fallout). Time Warden = Solcow. Nether Scion = Solcow. Halfus = Morbid or Fallout. Whelps = Shadowyn. Storm Rider = Shadowyn. What a surprise, Solcow dies because he's tanking two drakes.


So attempts 1-4 you don't even have Nether out before you die. You just have Time, Storm, Whelps, and Halfus. On attempt #5 you pull Nether out and immediately wipe because Nether is on Shadowyn with another drake and immediately kills him. On attempt 8 and 9 you decide that you need Nether out from the beginning and drop whelps, which would have worked for you except for healer error IMO, though healers probably started complaining at this point that they were OOM due to the raid damage. So on 10-13 you decide to have the bear tank two drakes, which NEVER WORKS for you (no attempts longer than a minute).

I don't see any of these that would qualify as an 'enrage wipe' since you never last longer than 3:05 and Halfus' berserk is 6 minutes.

Your DKs are dying because your healers are bad about swapping on the Halfus tank or because your tanks are bad about calling out tank swaps.

Not at any time do you use the strategy that I recommended. Your healers are never assigned correctly along with the tanks never tanking the recommended distribution of drakes. You don't use HoPs effectively nor tank swaps effectively. You do not focus down one drake at a time. These are all MAJOR differences compared to the strategy that I outlined earlier.
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Re: [25H] Halfus wtf

Postby fuzzygeek » Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:31 pm

Wow, you certainly spent a lot of time on that. That's quite something.

The enrage wipe was from a couple weeks ago, and not in the 3/10 logs.

Given that your exhaustive review is on logs a week old, I don't recall the particulars of that set of attempts this point, but I'm not going to bother explaining what happened in each pull and who was having connection issues and whatnot; sorry if I touched a nerve with my comment re: your in-depth writeup not being materially different than something we tried, but I was trying to distill core points from between the recommendations to "strafe backwards" and "avoid fireballs." I was more dismissive than I should have been and you're probably right that my understanding of your writeup differs from what you've got there, but given all the different things we've tried what you've written is similar to something we tried at some point (there's another set of logs if you want to spend time on those to prove your point). Or maybe not, and you're just right.

I still don't think there's a problem with tanking multiple drakes -- I think there's someone in another thread who tanks three. I also don't think there should be a problem with the druid tanking two drakes for the initial 1:15 if we have only 3 tanks available. We only tried a few pulls with two drakes with something different going wrong each pull -- completely separate issues for each pull.

We'll have to be more explicit about beacon and BoP (there was healer confusion on that point, certainly). But, sadness, we also won't be able to use your strat since we won't even have four tanks available this week due to spring break.

But anyway. Thanks for pointing out our paladins are not using their beacons correctly etc etc etc.
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Re: [25H] Halfus wtf

Postby Bluedragon » Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:12 am

There's no problem tanking multiple drakes. I tank 2 at the pull and chain CDs with a disc priest. I don't have an unhittable set, and I didn't have 4pc until after the kill this week.

Here's a log of our kill with me tanking 2 at the start: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-o1v5p ... 359&e=9660

I don't take much more damage at the start than our warrior tank does since he only uses CDs on an emergency (such as me dying and he has to aoe taunt). But this hasn't happened for awhile anyway.

To fix wiping to enrage, we pulled the drakes together to get incidental aoe to get a little extra dps. We have to constantly reign in the dps though or else they'll only aoe and we'll die to oom healers. Just keep reinforcing kill 1 drake at a time, but let incidentals take the others down.

It also helps tank damage, since there are healing ground effects, and other tanks provide aoe attack speed reduction. Especially useful if you have a DK tanking one so they don't need to disease.
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Re: [25H] Halfus wtf

Postby Sagedin » Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:43 pm

You can tank 2 drakes as Bluedragons logs show. However this does mean you will have to coordinate this extremely well. Looking through his logs it shows this was needed to keep him up until the first drake died (80 seconds):

- 4 healers healing him
- Safeguard, Trinket use, Divine Protection, Ardent Defender, Guardian of Ancient Kings, Guardian Spirit
- 100% uptime on 10% damage reduction (ancestral healing / inspiration)
- Heroism

All 4 healers did at least double the healing on Bluedragon than their secondary target, so we can assume they were assigned to him.


So looking at the above, it certainly is possible to tank 2 drakes, but if you are going to do it, you better have your healing and cooldown usage sorted.
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Re: [25H] Halfus wtf

Postby PsiVen » Tue Mar 22, 2011 6:26 am

Hrm, maybe I should check my pre-raid coffee for hallucinogens. I could swear that those whelps spammed a little fire breath attack between every few melee swings.
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Re: [25H] Halfus wtf

Postby Raive » Sat Mar 26, 2011 12:08 pm

The strat my guild's been using is the following

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqxVOZczhTI

Unfortunately we haven't downed it yet, having only been able to spend an hour or two a week on it (we've recently had a lot of people decide to take a raiding hiatus and so have been having to fill the spots with new recruits who seem easily deterred by wipes)

We've been having our DK tank pick up time + the whelps, our pally tank (me) picking up halfus and storm, and our druid tank picking up nether scion.

Me and the DK chain CD's off the start to give everyone time to settle in and healers to get their bearings.
At 8 stacks I've been bubbling stacks off, then at 6 or 7 our druid has been taunting halfus (at which point the druid begins to chain her CD's).
Everyone single targets the time warden with the exception of dps with strong aoe (Demo warlocks, mages, and mut? rogues) spam aoe on whelps/warden.

Our wipes so far have all been due to failed interrupts (our ele shaman has been having constant latency problems, and all our other regular kickers went on hiatus so we've been having to have to not so reliable recruits doing it)

Hopefully a reliable interrupter decides to show up on tuesday or we'll probably have to hold off on the kill for another week.
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Re: [25H] Halfus wtf

Postby Darielle » Sat Mar 26, 2011 12:52 pm

Since the change to how the fight works, we've just release Time, Nether, Storm on the pull and release Whelps once Time is dead (Time-->Nether-->Storm is our order). We never release Slate. We probably could - we just never got around to bothering. As far as tank death, make sure you have cooldowns up if you're tanking more than one thing at a time, and dodge Fireball Barrage where you can, especially when you are tanking 2 at a time.
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Re: [25H] Halfus wtf

Postby Central » Sun Mar 27, 2011 8:42 am

First night of attempts in over a month due to attendance and comp issues, we finally downed him in about 10 attempts. Feels good man.

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/y3p8e8l9 ... boss=44600

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnJAWkhx9sk

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Re: [25H] Halfus wtf

Postby Arizair » Mon Mar 28, 2011 3:56 am

i believe we ran with 3 tanks, but unlike the strat setups here, we never put the DK on halfus. why? because death strike is also their strongest mitigation and you're eating it by placing an MS on them.

dk had time/whelps, druid had halfus/storm, and warrior had nether.

healer setup was Disc (me), 2 HPally, 1 H Priest, 2 Druids, 1 Shaman. I healed the druid with a beacon and one druid's Lifeblooms. one pally healed the warrior with other pally's beacon and earth shield and the other pally healed the dk with 2nd druid's LB's. I found I would deviate and heal all 3 tanks but focus slightly more on the druid as his stacks grew and would Pain Suppress after the HoP as his stacks got up to around 4 again.

this basically led to Time being dead and any death after is people standing in fire. the other 2 drakes are focused and whelps die off gradually, but all 4 are released at the pull. 2 rogues were used to tricks whelps to 2 different tanks to both split up the damage intake and also benefit with the damage buff.

when i was tanking in the 10m guild, we actually got it down to 2 healers with a boomkin healing for the first 30s or so. id imagine as gear progresses, 6 heals will be the norm here. i just wish i'd had to chance to lol smite before the change, but i did enjoy tanking it at the time.
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Re: [25H] Halfus wtf

Postby RedAces » Mon Mar 28, 2011 5:29 am

hey,

we use 8 healers and 4 Tanks:
1 Tank on Halfus
1 Tank on Netherdrake
1 Tank on Stormrider
these 3 rotate in order to minimize the MS-stacks on them.

The 4th tank (me) tanks the whelps and the time warden (Time Warden get pulled by a hunter with MD) and all good AE-dps nuke the whelps, all classes that have better focus dps kill 1 whelp and then dps the time warden. I chain cooldowns at the start of the encounter because whelps + time + NO Atonement-spam is hard (GAnK followed by 2 Priest CDs). Everytime my dragon dies I taunt one of the drakes that was tanked by the other 3 in order to reduce the needed healing (MS + Drake hits hard).
We eventually kill 2 Drakes + Whelps and the last drake is offtanked by me. For every furious roar phase I get a CD (GAnK + 2 Priest CDs mostly suffice in order to kill Halfus), and every furious there is on holy paladin bubbling and healing me / other low ppl.
Please note you CAN move while being affected by furious roar, just spam the e.g. w, you'll make a few tiny steps... cumulativly they are enough to escape a fire patch (first roar stun + fire patch would otherwise leading to kill you).

I'm wearing my normal heavy mastery gear for this except adding two stamina trinkets (because you can't avoid while being thrown down, but you NEED mitigation if you tank Whelps+Drake).

Healer-Mana shouldn't not be a problem as soon as 2 Drakes are dead.. atonement will heal the tanks and resto shamys can regen to full in no time. All innervates should go to the other classes.

Bye, RedAces.
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Re: [25H] Halfus wtf

Postby baleogthefierce » Mon Mar 28, 2011 5:38 am

We just kill all the drakes now, it prevents the possibility of tank deaths during Furious Roars, and the enrage is very easily manageable.
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Re: [25H] Halfus wtf

Postby fuzzygeek » Mon Mar 28, 2011 7:41 am

baleogthefierce wrote:We just kill all the drakes now, it prevents the possibility of tank deaths during Furious Roars, and the enrage is very easily manageable.


After you've been farming heroics for a while this is probably simpler. For a first kill the enrage timer might be more problematic.

We had attendance issues last week due to spring break so did not get a chance to kill him; did last night with a modified strat we used almost four weeks ago, which makes me sad. 3T/7H. Half on DK on the pull, Nether on Druid burned down (bopping DK at 7 stacks while Nether dies). Storm and Time on me. Storm dies next, whelps are released once Storm is down. Whelps get MD'ed to me and die mostly to cleave, and are actually dead before Time goes down (someone got The Only Escape achievement). We never released Slate.

It looks like we've lost our Enh Shaman to a new job, so we had a horrible time with Novas. Still managed to kill him after the enrage, but we did lose some DPS here and there to 1) rogue pulling aggro because of tricks/MD miscommunication, and 2) sloppy fire management during roar.
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