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[10] Heroic Chimaeron

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Re: [10] Heroic Chimaeron

Postby Treck » Sun Jan 23, 2011 9:17 am

Jonlo wrote:Ah! So we were doing it wrong.

It's Massacre>Feud tank taunts>normal swing>Main tank taunts back>DA buff+Break>Feud Tank taunts>Double Attack>normal swing>Main tank taunts back>DA+Break>Massacre.

Does that sound a bit closer to correct?

The tanks will alternate between beeing Feud tanks aswell.
Simply put, one tank "MTs" while the otherone "OTs" the dubbleattacks.
As soon as the boss looses the buff, the MT taunts back.
Continue like this untill Feud, where the "OT" tanks during Feud.
When Feud is over the "OT" will allready have the boss, while the "MT" would still have his 4 debuffs for a bit longer.
The "OT" will have to take the first dubbleattack in that phase by himself, as the "MT" still has debuffs, and cant taunt just yet.
As soon as his debuffs drop, he will be "soaking" the dubbleattacks just like in the beginning, just swapped roles between the tanks.
When next Feud comes, the "MT" wont have any debuffs, and will tank the boss during Feud.

Crilljina wrote:Now if you, like us, get sick and tired of the absolutely massive RNG in this fight on 10 man, 3 tanks, 3 healers and a plate dpser MTing is the way to go. We tried all kinds of tactics before settling on this, but stuff like getting Feud on the 2nd Massacre, and then again on every single Massacre 3-4 times in a row after that, we realized to minimize the RNG we needed as many CDs as we could get. I was tanking as a ret paladin, I believe this is the best option, since I can just turn RF on and have 0 threat issues.

Anyone with a taunt can safely tank this boss while Bile'o'tron is up, without any risk of dying.
But i dont see this fight as beeing to RNG based, sure the Feuds are a bit random, getting it right after the last Feud is unlucky i guess, but i rarely see that happen.
3tanks? what would you ever want that for?
2 is more than enough, especially if you have a "non-tank" soaking the Breaks.
IF your going with this strat, you have tank A take the first Feud, tank B takes the 2nd, and even if your unlucky with the Feud phases, tank A's Debuffs would be out during his next time to tank.
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Re: [10] Heroic Chimaeron

Postby Faro » Sun Jan 23, 2011 4:59 pm

Treck wrote:3tanks? what would you ever want that for?


We were using 3 tanks last night because warrior dps is suck ass if they have to taunt, so much so that he did more as prot. We just got ridiculously unlucky as far as Feud/Mortality phase went. We had a couple 1% wipes where the boss feuded 5 or 6 times in 5 or 6 minutes, followed by Mortality phases where all 3 tanks had 0 dodges and he hit punched our rogue through evasion.

We're having 0 problem with the enrage since our 4 dps are pulling 18k+ each, but I feel like we're doing something wrong with our push. We're having our dps hold off a push during feud, lusting after the massacre so the healers can heal everyone to full, and 100% of the time he throws a caustic slime at our mage. The mage is pretty key to our mortality phase since we have the other 3 drop threat and let the mage mi tank after the tanks/healers die to chim, but that doesn't work so well when the mage dies in the phase and needs a bres.
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Re: [10] Heroic Chimaeron

Postby Treck » Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:22 pm

What mechanic is there in 10man that require you to use 3tanks (or 2tanks + dps tanking) thats not there in 25man, since we certainly never had to try using it.
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Re: [10] Heroic Chimaeron

Postby Faro » Sun Jan 23, 2011 8:57 pm

Treck wrote:What mechanic is there in 10man that require you to use 3tanks (or 2tanks + dps tanking) thats not there in 25man, since we certainly never had to try using it.


It's not realistically possible to keep a tank alive through double strikes with break stacks in 10m.
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Re: [10] Heroic Chimaeron

Postby Scarzi » Sun Jan 23, 2011 11:04 pm

edit, 2 tanks and a dps tank is better.
Last edited by Scarzi on Wed Jan 26, 2011 12:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
Last time I checked, 38% dodge is better then stacking stamina.
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Re: [10] Heroic Chimaeron

Postby Faro » Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:05 am

We all have to do the same role switch rotation. The difference is whether or not you go into double strikes with break stacks or not. It's possible to die to a double strike at full hp if you have two break stacks, just two unblocked hits. It happened to me all night, and i have 97 ctc in raids. Using a dk/ret paladin tank to eat breaks removes the rng completely, but it's all in how much dps you can afford to lose.

Our UH DK went from 19-20k to 13k while taunting/swinging from the front, but we had dps to spare. Everyone was pulling above 20k sustained cept the arcane mage who was doing like 16-18, then blew shit up in mortality.
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Re: [10] Heroic Chimaeron

Postby Treck » Mon Jan 24, 2011 6:07 am

Faro wrote:
Treck wrote:What mechanic is there in 10man that require you to use 3tanks (or 2tanks + dps tanking) thats not there in 25man, since we certainly never had to try using it.


It's not realistically possible to keep a tank alive through double strikes with break stacks in 10m.

Its not realistic to do that in 25man eather, thats why you dont, and i see no reason you cant work around it in 10man aswell.
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Re: [10] Heroic Chimaeron

Postby Faro » Mon Jan 24, 2011 3:12 pm

Treck wrote:
Faro wrote:
Treck wrote:What mechanic is there in 10man that require you to use 3tanks (or 2tanks + dps tanking) thats not there in 25man, since we certainly never had to try using it.


It's not realistically possible to keep a tank alive through double strikes with break stacks in 10m.

Its not realistic to do that in 25man eather, thats why you dont, and i see no reason you cant work around it in 10man aswell.


I feel like there's a disconnect in what we're saying. If you're saying the work around is that you have a dps "tank" as long as the robot is alive then we're agreeing with each other. If you're saying you just have two tanks handling feud, robot, and doubles then I'd be interested in hearing how it's done.
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Re: [10] Heroic Chimaeron

Postby Belloc » Mon Jan 24, 2011 4:19 pm

He did say that having a DPS tank was perfectly fine.

I do think, however, that he brought up concerns with using 3 specced and geared tanks. There was a person earlier in the thread that mentioned using 3 specced and geared tanks (as in, 3 tanks in prot specs with prot gear), which is completely unnecessary.

The gist I'm getting from Treck is that you should use 2 proper tanks and 1 dps tank (in DPS gear).
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Re: [10] Heroic Chimaeron

Postby Treck » Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:23 pm

While having a dps tank is fine, i see no reason to do so as it is not necessary.

As ive mentioned before i havnt done this on 10man, but every kill we have done in 25man hc (including our world first) was done with 2 proper tanks, and noone else tanking at all (think some guilds killed it with using hunter pets tanking during Feud/eating dubbleattacks).
And this was before a massacre cleared dubbleattacks.
Yes, we had "only" 2 tanks tanking.
The way to do it is to have your first tank stack up Breaks, while the other tank doesnt take any applications of break, but he taunts the boss and "soaks" the dubbleattacks.
This means that when the first Feud is coming, the 2nd tank wont have any Break stacks, so he starts tanking during Feud (important for your healers attention that they know who to top asap).
He then continues to tank the whole Feud by himself, using a strong CD for the dubbleattack right after his first application of break.
The next massacre hits, and he continues tanking.
At the point when the next dubbleattack comes, the first tank will still have his debuffs so he cannot taunt, a minor CD on the current tank (since he should have 2 Breaks during this dubbleattack).
By the time of the next Break/dubbleattack, the first tank should have his debuffs ran out, so he starts soaking dubbleattacks.
During the next Feud, the tank who just soaked the dubbleattacks starts tanking, and just like before he gets topped fast, and uses a strong CD for the dubbleattack (since you have to survive both hits, not just one like when the bot is up).
We used priests guardian/painsupp together with small CDs to survive the first dubbleattack right after massacre on our firstkill, as that is not the case anymore Tanks can now be selfsufficient with their own 3min CDs, they will be up again for the next time your Feud phase comes.
This however means that one of your tanks will most likely enter the last phase with 4xBreak, and will go down pretty fast, however if your lucky the other tank will have none, and could even have his CDs up to survive longer.

I think this tactic has been mentioned before in eather this or the other Chimaeron topics.
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Re: [10] Heroic Chimaeron

Postby 2Cute2BeStr8 » Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:34 pm

Since there is no reason not to have a dps tank during this. Wether you are world first/ what not. I still see it as much less desirable I suppose to only have two specced/geared prot tanks.

Why even have to use a CD for double strikes... I like only having to use CD's/save them for feuds last phase. There is almost no dps loss for say a ret pali to tank breaks, so why ever risk a mishap. I'd just rather limit my chances of dieing. Like I said only had to use CD's during feuds, and others were able to save CD"s for feuds as well makes last phase much smoother having everything up.
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Re: [10] Heroic Chimaeron

Postby Treck » Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:39 pm

2Cute2BeStr8 wrote:There is almost no dps loss for say a ret pali to tank breaks, so why ever risk a mishap.

Without vengeance a tank will do a lot less dmg, so your "loosing" dps on 2 fronts.
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Re: [10] Heroic Chimaeron

Postby Faro » Mon Jan 24, 2011 6:55 pm

We used three spec'd tanks because warriors do shit dps having to stance dance for taunts. If your dps is good, it's cleaner than saving divine protection for the single 4x break double attack. It's not better than having a dk/ret sponge breaks.
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Re: [10] Heroic Chimaeron

Postby Treck » Mon Jan 24, 2011 10:41 pm

You should never take a dubbleattack while having 4x Break, not to mention DP will prolly not save you there anyway.
Worst case cenario, you take a dubbleattack while having 2x Break.
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Re: [10] Heroic Chimaeron

Postby inthedrops » Mon Jan 24, 2011 10:48 pm

I've not done this on 10 man, but finally finished 25 tonight. One change I made, which I think was mentioned above, was to double up a Hand of Sacrifice along with a Divine Protection when starting a Feud. And once you get that first stack of break, pop your big cooldown before DA hits.

That Hand of Sacrifice prevented some tank death issues I was intermittently having. To be honest, I believe the HoS was overlapping during the Double Attack (the healers put it on fairly late after Feud, in retrospect that makes a lot of sense to me). The healers perspective was probably "Heal heal heal, get him to full, ok now I can HoS".
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