[10] Cho'gall -- Normal Strategy

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[10] Cho'gall -- Normal Strategy

Postby VikrumthePally » Tue Jan 04, 2011 9:51 am

I know there is already a Cho'gall going but that is suggesting an unorthodox strategy. Or at least I think it is. If not please feel free to delete mine.

I was wanting to know is there a certain point that we should be into phase 2? Do we need to be trying to keep it to 4 adherents?

Also I am wondering what some people's raid positioning strategies are. I.E where do you tank boss, Adherent, smaller adds, and where are you ranged/heals?

Thanks for any input.
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Re: [10] Cho'gall -- Normal Strategy

Postby Brutalus » Tue Jan 04, 2011 10:05 am

Also I am wondering what some people's raid positioning strategies are. I.E where do you tank boss, Adherent, smaller adds, and where are you ranged/heals?


We just tank the boss in the middle of the room with his back to the throne, and everyone piles up behind him (except the main-tank). If fire spawns in melee (which it rarely does) the boss gets moved. The only time people need to move from that position is when the add spawns and starts shadow crashing, in which case spread a little bit, tank the add near the boss, and when it gets low kite it to his throne and kill it there. Then, pile up at the boss and aoe the adds down. Piling up means you can just use aoe fears and other CCs to break the MCs. Rinse and repeat until the last phase, where we tank the boss next to a couple of tentacles for cleave damage while ranged kill off the rest.
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Re: [10] Cho'gall -- Normal Strategy

Postby Belloc » Tue Jan 04, 2011 12:23 pm

We use 2 tanks, 2 healers (I believe) and 6 DPS. Cho'Gall is tanked on the left side of the room (near the alcove) and all adds that spawn are pulled into that alcove so that they die close enough to each other to be AOE'd down. Alternatively, we could tank him near the back and kill the adds up the stairs.

All of our kills have had 4 adherent spawns (and our latest kill has only had 3 fester blood casts, but the other kills had 4).
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Re: [10] Cho'gall -- Normal Strategy

Postby sculder » Tue Jan 04, 2011 12:39 pm

2 tanks / 3 healers works just fine, so long as your dps is up to par. We had a frost dk, fury warrior, fire mage, ele shaman, and an affliction lock DPSing, 2 trees + 1 shaman healing, and paladin/warrior tanks.

Tanked him in the middle of the room, moved if necessary, and taunted every 2 stacks, and/or as convenient. The MCs were easy with our tank setup because both of us could break them all instantly (shockwave and avenger's shield). The biggest issue we had were the adds - it's imperative that they be slowed the whole way because they move extremely fast otherwise. It is possible to get MC'd while adds are up, we wiped to this a couple of times due to the adds going without a slow long enough to run way too far... As long as the adds are under control then the fight really rests on the tanks using CDs appropriately for p1.

p2 is a bit more challenging, but here's something that we figured out very quickly and helps a TON: Make one dps the "leader," in our case a frost DK, and everyone assists him on burning down the tentacles. The difficult part of this phase is the 75% healing reduction they channel on raid members which becomes a real pain in the ass if it gets on the tank. This can be easily avoided by having the OT "soak" the tentacles that spawn near (usually behind) the MT. The OT must attack the tentacles before they start channeling and can gain "aggro" on them like that. We had the OT "tank" the ones nearest to the MT until the dps pack could get to them. By far the most important part of this phase is keeping the tentacles off of the main tank. If you don't want to "tank" the tentacles, then y ou should have the dps pack start with the ones closest to the MT first and then move outwards, though this can be complicated by DPS receiving the -damage debuff...
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Re: [10] Cho'gall -- Normal Strategy

Postby laterna » Tue Jan 04, 2011 8:53 pm

We used a kind of cheesed up 2 tank strat.

Setup
Prot Pally
Feral in DPS gear/specc
Frost DK
Fury Warrior
RetPally
Frost Mage
Destro Lock
Disc Priest

2xResto Shamen

Our tactic basically involved abusing the feral's ability to go to bear. The fight starts, and I take the first 2 stacks. After that, whenever I am on 20 cds on my stack, the feral taunts and takes 1 stack. We find that once I take the first 2, resetting at 1 comes in an always easy point. The feral did tank the add as well(they don't hit for much).

One thing I must say about this, is despite the fact WoG is an awesome specc, don't use it here. If you use the tactic I described, you have a near always full vengeance, and you can do immense amounts of dps. We also stacked the defiles, in a line between the entry door, and cho'gall. Once they reached a certain point, they got massacred by our AoE.

minor note : retri just facerolled the boss , due to stupid way of how changing targets fucks you up. He did 12k on a non moving boss :/

Our dmg meters looked count of high up there, but we always transitioned straight after he was spawning the 4th add. We OT'd the add a bit, then it dissapears once cho'gall finishes his absorbing blood cast.

p2
If you're in the normal specc, you can do so much here. AS interupts the tentacles, and if you're tanking him close to a wall, you usually have them spawning very close to you. Also, full stack vengeance, you can obliterate 2 of them on your own.

Have fun and happy wiping!
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Re: [10] Cho'gall -- Normal Strategy

Postby Fetzie » Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:34 am

We tank him in the middle of the room with the boss facing his throne, this means melee need to run less. Adds are killed on the stairs from the entrance. 4 adherents + four fester bloods, we would need 4-5% more damage done to avoid the last fester blood. When the last set of blood is nearly down we pull him to the wall, this means the tentacles bunch up and can be interrupted and killed much more efficiently. Bloodlust at 26% to get the faster dots ticking and a bit more boss damage before the first tentacles spawn, which can take up to 15 seconds after triggering P2.
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Re: [10] Cho'gall -- Normal Strategy

Postby PsiVen » Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:03 am

I would say that the 4th add transition is absolutely essential. It's possible to have the DPS to kill him in P2 but transition right after a 5th Adherent spawns, which is very dangerous and will cost you a lot of DPS time. If you let the 5th add Fester, you'll have a huge amount of AoE to do and probably transition into P2 with OOM healers.

One thing I must say about this, is despite the fact WoG is an awesome specc, don't use it here. If you use the tactic I described, you have a near always full vengeance, and you can do immense amounts of dps

This matches my experience. When we 2-healed, I needed to constantly spam myself with WoG and my DPS was awful. When we switched back to 3-healing, I comfortably used SoV and only threw myself a WoG when it seemed particularly important. My DPS skyrocketed from 3.7k to 8.1k which made quite a big difference.

minor note : retri just facerolled the boss , due to stupid way of how changing targets fucks you up. He did 12k on a non moving boss :/


I'm not sure I agree with this, he could have thrown up SoR and wrecked those tentacles. With LAotL he'll get there fast, Rebuke interrupts dangerous channels, and I think Holy Wrath even works on them (not sure).
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Re: [10] Cho'gall -- Normal Strategy

Postby laterna » Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:01 am

Well it depends on how you dealt with the tentacles in all honesty. Personally, I saved up a 3point Shield, along with AS/Hammer. Pulling him to a wall bunches everything together, so most of the time, with our cleave aoe composition we dealt it easily without having our retri move to tentacles.

Also, tentacles were a 5 second deal for us... They just died before they could cast tbh... 165k hp is nothing, in the content of how much damage the dps can pull off

We repeated our kill today, one shotting Cho'gall. Only person to die was the DK (same composition)

I even broke my previous (world according to WoL) record, setting my 10man dps to 11860! :d

As you gear up this becomes increasingly easy. We went into p2 before the 4th add even spawned this time!
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Re: [10] Cho'gall -- Normal Strategy

Postby Pif » Sun Jan 09, 2011 5:35 am

sculder wrote:Tanked him in the middle of the room, moved if necessary, and taunted every 2 stacks, and/or as convenient. T


My guild is new to this boss as of Thursday and we are switching every 1 stack so the same tank always takes the add thats spawns just before the switch, my question is why to 2 stacks, is there any benefit to it? (You mean of Cho'Galls Fury right or am i missing something?)
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Re: [10] Cho'gall -- Normal Strategy

Postby laterna » Thu Jan 13, 2011 8:33 am

If you taunt at 2 stacks you can get into a rotation that you only swap tanks when there is no add up. Personally, we used a feral tank in dps to tank the add, so basically, he only taunted the boss off of me every 2 stacks making sure that that way, he would only tank for 1 second (thus not getting gibbed) and being able to manage taking the add efficiently, without too much hassle
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Re: [10] Cho'gall -- Normal Strategy

Postby PsiVen » Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:33 am

You can taunt at every single stack of Fury of Cho'Gall. The timing will skew such that the debuff goes out after the Ascendant is spawned for the 3rd and 4th adds, but he casts it immediately afterwards so you still have time to swap before the add is in range of anyone.
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Re: [10] Cho'gall -- Normal Strategy

Postby mfrench » Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:54 pm

We did a few attempts on Cho'gall in our last 10 man raid and our main problem was maintaining the dps on the boss, while at the same time taking care of the adherents and slimes. Our guideline was to only have 4 adherent spawns to deal with.

Here is the dps makeup for our group:
- Fire mage
- Affliction lock
- Elemental shaman
- Fury Warrior
- Ret Pally

I tanked the boss near the throne (boss facing the throne as well). DPS and healers stacked behind the boss. When an adherent spawned, we tank swapped and I would take the add up the stairs and we would try to kill it near the entrance to the room.

A few questions and ideas:

1. Is there a better placement for the raid? One idea I have is to instead tank the boss in the middle of the room with the boss facing the stairs, and raid facing the stairs as well. This would allow ranged to get on the slimes without needing to turn around.

2. Would it be better to bring the adherent to the middle of the room where the boss and raid is, and then burn the add down to about 100-200k and then 1 dps takes care of helping with interrupts and dps while I drag him to the room entrance? Kind of like Yogg P1 adds. This would allow dps to have minimal time switching off the boss. We would need to loosely spread out during this time to minimize shadow crashes.

3. What is the best way to deal with slowing the slimes? Our mage has tried Frost before on Magmaw adds and his aoe dps was so much lower compared to Fire. We currently are having the ele shaman drop an earthbind totem, but then it hurts his dps since he has to drop right there, and move a little away to avoid getting hit. Another ideas is for our Fury warrior to use Piercing Howl, but it will take him some time to get up there (although he could heroic leap). This is a fight where a hunter shines with their frost trap.

Thanks for the help!
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Re: [10] Cho'gall -- Normal Strategy

Postby Belloc » Mon Jan 17, 2011 5:08 pm

Earthbind totem is fine (unless the shaman stays MC'd too long).

Have you tried asking your aff lock to go demonology? Felstorm and hellfire are huge for the adds. Theoretically, if you could position all of the adherents so that all 4 puddles are in one spot, felstorm would solo the adds (again, theoretically... this is just to illustrate how powerful demo locks are on this fight). It's a pretty big deal.

Also, two healing the fight will open up another DPS spot. Look into that if you can.
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Re: [10] Cho'gall -- Normal Strategy

Postby Epimer » Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:35 pm

We're having big problems with this boss. I think I know what the problem is, but I thought I'd ask here for corroboration.

Setup:

2 Protection Paladins
Resto Druid
Holy Paladin
Holy Priest
Destruction Lock (went Affliction for a couple of pulls, but doesn't know the spec)
Survival Hunter
Balance Druid
Elemental Shaman
Arms Warrior (Yes, Arms. Don't ask/see the Frustrations thread in a minute)

Tactic:

Boss tanked facing his throne, raid piled up behind. Tanks swap at one stack of Fury, meaning it's always the same tank on the adds. Add dragged to stairs, killed there. All ranged switch to the little adds when they spawn; they're slowed by a Frost Trap.

Problem: we're hitting the enrage timer at 30-35%, which is absolutely woefully bad. When it was suggested that we switch to 2 healers, there were vehement protests. Our old problem on this boss was wipes from tank death, but now we're using 2 main spec tanks (I'm on Cho'gall and am using a cooldown for every Flame's Orders, and tank deaths no longer happen) this isn't happening.

I think our problem is low DPS. Logs are here. Currently everybody switches to Adherents, which is possible unnecessary. My personal DPS is low because I'm SoI and WoGing my way from a minute in, because otherwise my health yo-yos dangerously.

What's going wrong? It looks like boss DPS is too low, but what's the solution? Keep some people on the boss full time (obviously melee aren't switching to little adds, but they are for Adherents).
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Re: [10] Cho'gall -- Normal Strategy

Postby Belloc » Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:46 pm

Drop a healer and improve your DPS. I'm also a bit curious as to why your warlock is destruction instead of demonology, considering this is an add fight.

Your group's DPS is woefully low. Your best DPS is below our worst DPS on our first Cho'Gall kill. At your current numbers, you have no choice but to add another DPS or drastically improve DPS across the board. Even when two-healing the fight, our tanks were putting out 9.5k and 7.3k (vs. your 5.3k and 3.8k).

Every single one of your DPS needs to improve by at least 2k. Many of them should be putting out 4-5k more DPS.

As far as the adherents go, we had all 6 of our DPS on them (and a tank), so there's nothing wrong with doing so.

If you're having problems two-healing it, you're probably not interrupting Worship fast enough. It's not difficult to have 0 buff stacks on the boss, especially when everyone is stacked.

So, again, drop a healer or increase everyone's dps by 3-5k. Or, preferably, do both.
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